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  • "Describe the following Star Wars character WITHOUT saying what they look like, what kind of costume they wore, or what their profession or role in the movie was. Describe this character to your friends like they ain’t ever seen Star Wars."

    This is a test that RedLetterMedia and should a character pass it then they pass the character test, here's an examples from The Legend of Korra.

    Asami is kind, intelligent and caring. Despite all the crap through and getting repeatably stabbed in the back by those she trusts, Asami always looks for the best in people. However, she makes it clear to those who have betrayed or hurt her that they have to earn her trust before they can regain her friendship.

    She is VERY level headed, almost never rushes into a situation without some kind of plan. But when push comes to shove and she is forced to go in without a plan she is more then capable and ready to kick ass. She is loyal to a fault and never once thinks about hurting those she cares about and when she does hurt someone she cares about, be it directly or indirectly, she Women's up and admits her mistake.

    Now try talking about Mako without bringing up his relationship with Korra or Asami. See the problem? His whole character revolves around his relationship with his love interest to the point that even his relationship with Bolin is more of a cliff note then anything else.

    The fact that Mako's character revolves around his relationship with Korra and Asami only becomes more glaring after Spirits as he continues to be part of the main cast and yet doesn't really do anything and most of what he does could have been done by anyone and nothing would have to change. Here is a list of everything Mako has done over the course of the series.

    He gave Amon a electric shock, suspected Aiwei of being the traitor, relayed a message from Zaheer to Korra, killed Ming-Hua, refused to watch Wu which resulted in the idiot getting captured and destroyed the Colossus' power core. Every single one of these events could have been done by anyone, even destroying the power core could have been solved by had Kuvira not "Overwritten" it. Hell at this point the Colossus wasn't a real threat anymore as Korra was kicking Kuvira's butt and Lin and Sue had already dismantled the main weapon.

    And it gets worse, as said on Mako's trivia page Mako originally did have a arc like the rest of the main cast but unlike Korra, Asami and Bolin it wasn't him overcoming any personal demons but a romantic arc for with Fire Lord Izumi's daughter. Yes really, after two seasons of just being a love interest and one season of doing pretty much nothing Mako's final character was going to be him getting involved with a character we have never seen with only one season to set up said relationship.

    In other words, the same exact romantic arc he was given in Air that was one of the most heavily criticized points of the that season was going to be the very thing they were going to give to him for the series finally.

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    • I don't think anyone is going to argue against the notion that Mako wasn't the best written character, but I don't think that's a good "test." Whether we like it or not, what a person looks like & what they do go a long way toward defining them, or at least defining how others perceive them. When you can't do that, you're forced to use extremely general terms that could be describing a broad range of people. It's also heavily prone to bias, since someone who likes the character will have a much easier time coming up with ways to describe them, while someone who dislikes that character will be quick to write them off as unnuanced.

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    • Mako had all of Zuko's doom and gloom personality, but none of his charm. He's a banal archetype of the hardened by the streets variety. Bolin at least had some dynamism; from what I can recall, Mako never really changed.

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    • XXTaiWolfXx wrote:
      Mako had all of Zuko's doom and gloom personality, but none of his charm. He's a banal archetype of the hardened by the streets variety. Bolin at least had some dynamism; from what I can recall, Mako never really changed.


      Actually he does change just not in a good way. At the start of the series Mako was a, as you said, "Hardened by the Streets" type character who was cool under fire and could take on three people at once and win with little to no effort. As the series went on, however, he started losing his cool when things start getting even a little bit tough or requires greater commitment on his part, became so awkward around anyone and would loses most of the fights his in.

      Bolin does grow as the series goes on but its not until Balance that it actually begins to take hold as most of his development is thrown to the waist side at the start of each season. For the record I do think that Bolin's character arc and development in Balance was great but I don't think he grew that much for the series on the whole.

      Asami on the other hand is always growing and changing as the series goes on as she goes from Mako's fangirl to head of one of the biggest corporations in the world.

      Here's another problem with Mako in contrast with Korra and Asami, how often do we see him struggle to get what he wants? How often is he just handed what he needs with no strings attached and when it is taken away how long does it take for him to either get it back or find something that is just as good or better then he had?

      The answer to the first is not very often, Mako never really suffers that many hardships throughout the show. First he has to take a job that requires him to work all day but that was only for one episode and then by the next episode he runs into Asami and she offers to give him the money he needs to compete in the Pro-Bending Tournament.

      Has trouble choosing between Korra and Asami, pretty much ignores Asami after she loses everything to be with Korra and then the two break up with no hard feelings so he can be with Korra without having to feel guilty about it.

      Acts awkward around Korra and Asami in the first few episodes of Change, barley talks to Korra throughout the rest of the season and then its resolved by Korra hugging him despite the fact that they, again, barely talked during the season, (and the rest of the series for that matter).

      He is given everything he wants or needs usually without question and never earns anything. So moments when we are suppose to cheer for him just end up feeling either confusing or hollow because he never had to even try to get his way.

      Hell in The Sting he is literally handed the evidence he needs when detective work, what little he does, leads him to a series of dead ends. He doesn't figure out that Varrick is the one behind anything by putting the peaces together, he finds out by just being on movie set just as their doing the explosions and then his, again, handed the evidence he needs!

      He doesn't solve the case by being a badass detective, he figures it out by luck!

      Korra, Asami, Tenzin, Lin, Jinora and Bolin all have to fight and struggle for what they want. Mako only struggle is to put up with Wu for the whole season which in all fairness is a pretty crappy deal but still nearly having your soul destroyed, being crippled, turning your back on your only family to do right thing, facing your past demons to as well as your own personal flaws to reconnect with your estranged family and trying to make amends after working with a tyrant isn't exactly the same thing as having to put up with this worlds version of Neelix.

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    • I agree. One could also call him "a gary stu" at first. and is hardly necessary in the last two Korra seasons. We're also told he's capable of great love and sacrifice, but he doesn't really show it.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      I agree. One could also call him "a gary stu" at first. and is hardly necessary in the last two Korra seasons. We're also told he's capable of great love and sacrifice, but he doesn't really show it.


      That's actually another problem with Mako and his relationship with Korra in particular. We are often told things about him but the show never bothers to show it, case in point, we are told by overly exited announcement guy that the attraction between Korra and Mako was mutual until Asami showed up.'

      Uh, when did Mako show any sign that he liked Korra? No really the only thing I can come up with is him looking longingly at Air Temple Island at the end of A Leaf on the Wind but besides that Mako's only "feelings" towards her seem indifferent at best, annoyed at worse. We also learn that he told Asami all about Korra, which, again, we never see in any episode.

      The show actually needs to tell us that Mako is in love with Korra because it never took the time to establish it. On top of that we never get a reason as to why Mako develops feelings for Korra. We get some idea in Skeletons in the Closet where Mako calls Korra, "The most loyal, brave, and selfless person I've ever known." This would be really nice if it wasn't for the fact that all those same traits can be just as easily applied to Asami.

      She turned on her father to help her friends and continued to do so even after Mako started ignoring her, so loyal. She going up against an entire army with no powers and armed only with a shock glove, brave. And she continues to fight against her father even after she has lost everything she knows by helping these people which most certainly qualifies as selfless.

      And skipping forward in Remembrance Mako says that Korra inspires him to always put others ahead of himself and that she continues to inspire him. This comes right off the heels of Reunion where Mako refused to do his job and watch over Wu because he was too busy pouting over the fact that Korra never wrote to him, which fair enough I would also be hurt if a friend never wrote to me but did so with someone else. The problem is Mako has only one job, watch and protect Wu and doesn't want to because he doesn't want to talk to Korra for not writing him.

      Then, when Korra and Asami are working hard to fix his mistake, he tries shifting the blame over to Korra for losing Wu. I'm not kidding here's what he actually says, "Oh, so its my fault that Wu disappeared!"

      So just to recap, he gets so annoyed that Korra didn't write to him that he stops doing his job and leaves Wu unprotected and then tries to blames the people who are trying to fix his mistake. Which is then followed by the next episode by him saying how much Korra inspired him to put others ahead of himself.

      And in said episode he keeps trying to justify his poor treatment of Asami by saying that he wasn't in a relationship with Asami when he first kissed Korra and then later says that he never really got back with Asami when Korra got amnesia. Which is such a stupid excuse that even Wu calls him out on it.

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    • he did somewhat redeem himself in book 4. let's hope Fate would be kinder to mako in the comics and maybe meet someone new thatd he'd end up with and can put up with his antics like say the fire nation princess?

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    • Yeah, pretty much....the fact that Mako's entire character arc revolved around love triangle drama (when the way they introduced him indicated otherwise) was always one of my main critiques against Mako's character. They could have gone a number of ways with his character with aspects and plot points already established before the love triangle took hold (orphaned with his brother on the streets, being a former gang member, being forced to be a caretaker at a young age, etc) but instead they tack on this unnecessary love triangle arc and entangle the vast majority of Mako's character around his relationships with Korra and Asami.....

      For me it's one of the main reasons why Book 1 (and to a lesser extent Book 2) is so hard for me to watch even in light of knowing about how the show ends. It's a point I go back and forth on....while I do appreciate that after Book 2 his character didn't center around the love triangle from hell, it still becomes readily apparent that the show wasted far too much of its time on the love triangle and without it Mako doesn't really have anything else to work with (even though he could have....).

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    • @ HolyDragon2808

      It also doesn't help that Mako's characterization is hugely inconsistent, especially in the first season which doesn't have the benefit of the trope, Depending on the Writer as the whole season was only written by two people Mike and Bryan. In episodes 2 and 3 Mako is presented as the brooding bad boy who shows little to no emotion.

      Then in the 4th episode, as soon as he starts talking to Asami he suddenly is a VERY emotional person who wears his heart on his sleeves as he gets bashful, angry, exited and romantic throughout the entire episode. He then continues to act like this in episode 5 as he is acts very rude to Korra, gets angry and jealous at the drop of a hat.

      Episodes 6 doesn't really have that much in the way of characterization but episode 7 paints Mako as someone who once again losses his temper though not nearly as much as he did in episode 5. I would call this character development except A) Mako is still being a jerk and B) Him threatening to end his relationship with Korra because he thinks she is doing this because she is jealous of his relationship with Asami is not a big improvement over him accusing her of manipulating Bolin so she could get back at him. And for the record, neither case was the truth, she went out with Bolin because he was being nice to her and she really did think Hiroshi was a Equalist supporter.

      Then in episode 8 he starts acting all chivalrous and flirtatious with Korra and begins ignoring Asami altogether.

      And then we get to the last four episodes of the season. in episode 9 Mako loses his shit when he learns that Korra has been captured and begins snapping at everyone who is either slowing them now, including Asami despite being in this the exact same situation when Bolin was captured by the Equalist in episode 3 where he kept his head despite the fact that Bolin was taken by a known hate group. And yet he gets more worked up that Korra being taken despite only knowing her for a few months.

      Episode 10 he suddenly gets very defensive when Asami calls him out and tries shifting blame to Bolin instead of admitting that he has done anything wrong. This makes him come off as almost childish, like a kid trying to blame someone else for eating all the cookies.

      Then in episode 11 Mako says that the reason he likes Korra is because she is the most brave, loyal and selfless person he has ever known. Which would be really charming if it weren't for the fact that that all these traits that Asami also has which makes Mako feelings for Korra come off as shallow, which they are.

      Throughout the last two episodes Mako goes back to knight in shining armor persona he had in episode 8 with a healthy mix of his more childish tendencies he had in episode 10.

      This isn't character development, this is a character being completely re-written to fit the need of the plot. The plot says that Mako needs to rude and overly emotional so he acts rude and overly emotional. It needs him to keep his cool no matter what so he will keep his cool no matter what.

      Pretty much the most consistent thing about Mako is that he is inconsistent because his character continues to change episode to episode with no rhyme or reason.

      And finally it doesn't help that Mako's fairly interesting back story HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS CHARACTER! IT'S COMPLETELY IGNORED!!! He's parents are killed by a firebender right in front of him when he was just a kid, he worked for a local gang in order to make a living, finds that he has other family members still alive and was a star athlete for most of his young life.

      Asami losing her mother is a major part of her character as it is what led to her father's downfall and is something that helps inform us as to why her company is so important to her as it is the last positive thing of her family left.

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    • @ Winter77

      I agree with your general assertion that Mako's character was all over the place during book 1 depending on the demands of the plot. However, Masami (Mako x Asami) to me wasn't one of those inconsistencies at least not for the reason you stated. Being a bit awkward around a girl he found attractive isn't really inconsistent to what we've seen and I actually thought it was interesting that Asami could coax that sort of reaction from the guy who's normally a bit stoic and stand offish.

      For me, the inconsistency lies in the fact that Mako's blushing reaction and confiding in Asami was actually shown to us on screen and felt more like a "powerful connection" between the two of them. And yet Remembrances constantly insists that the "powerful connection" is stronger between Makorra which as I've said, just watching Book one without the fore knowledge of Remembrances doesn't do a good job in establishing this "powerful connection" between Makorra at all.

      Though everything else I pretty much agree with and it's sad because despite my critiques, I don't hate Mako by any means. I just think the love triangle did him (well pretty much all parties involved but him the most) an injustice as a character....

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    • There were times I wanted to swat Bolin (for trying to lie, for smooching Ginger when she was tied down, for trying to be slick with Opal, for working for Kuvira, for being a dipshit about trying to redeem himself in Opal's eyes, and every bedamned time he interrupted a Beifong hug). 

      Mako, on the other hand?  When I wasn't wanting to swat him for something he'd done, I was wanting to swat him for his seeming lack of consistent characterization.  And then, there's the fact that so bedamned much of his fanbase seems to be like this (although I'm still not certain how sincere that thread actually is). 

      But I'll give him this: he definitely improved once he stopped being a love interest.  Hopefully, fandom speculation that he's going to be framed as "the biphobe" (I don't see it—he just looked overwhelmed to me—but some people have interpreted his reaction that way) in the comics is off-base.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:

      Though everything else I pretty much agree with and it's sad because despite my critiques, I don't hate Mako by any means. I just think the love triangle did him (well pretty much all parties involved but him the most) an injustice as a character....


      Yeah, I think that's the biggest issue with Mako. When TLOK was announced and that when we got the first few images of Mako I was actually looking forward to Makorra. I was, and still am, a huge fan of Zutara and like many I saw Makorra as a spiritual successor to Zutara.

      However, Makorra was only similar to Zutara in that Mako was a Firebender and Korra was a Waterbender. Besides that, nothing Korra was not Katara and Mako was only a pale imitation of Zuko. And it didn't help that the two had no real chemistry which was not helped by, as you pointed out, the fact that there was never a point where the two really connected.

      I'm actually putting together a essay as to why Makorra didn't worked but the short version is this. They spend barely any time together, when they are in the same episode they are usually on opposites sides of the room and the few moments when they are actually next to one another the camera usually pulls away from them so there's no sense of intimacy.

      All this is in direct contrast to Korrasami. From Book 3 onward the they spend most of their time together and the even when they aren't the focus of the scene we see them setting together, standing together and eating together. Combine this with Janet Varney and Seychelle Gabriel's fantastic chemistry and its easy to see why Korrasami became the series most popular couple.

      It also helped that Asami had more going on then just her relationship with Korra and Mako. She had a company to run, there was her relationship with her father, her rebuilding Republic City and her friendship with Bolin so whenever she wasn't interacting with Korra she had other sources to fall back on.

      Mako on the other hand, whenever he isn't interacting with Korra or Asami, his just kinda there. At first the show seems to be setting up a relationship between him and Kai only for them to have like maybe six minutes of screen time together, with most of that time having them barely interact with the last scene between them being that they have fully resolved whatever issue they had without them actually working to resolve it.

      That's actually another issue with Mako, he doesn't really struggle and therefore doesn't really earn anything. Think about, He needs money to compete in the Pro-Bending Tournament, he has a run in with one of his biggest fans who happens to be super rich and convinces her father to front the bill. Loses his home after the Equalist attack on the Equalist attack, Asami and Korra offer him and Bolin to stay at their respective homes. Can't choose between Korra and Asami, pretty much stops paying attention to Asami and gets together with Korra and then just breaks up with Asami.

      Of course the worse offender is in the episode The Sting. Mako spends the whole episode trying to figure out who is behind the bombings and stealing Asami's shipments only to turn up with zero leads the whole episode. Until he just happens to talk to Bolin just as he is starting a scene with pyrotechnics and the episode then literally hands him the answer he needs. Mako didn't figure out that Varrick was the villain through his detective skills he just got lucky. Had he not gone to visit Bolin just as they were starting the pyrotechnics then Varrick would have gotten away with his scheme completely. And what's worse is that Varrick's plan was foiled, not by Mako's investigation, but by Bolin stumbling across it just as it happened. In other words Mako's whole investigation was completely pointless and it didn't effect his character in anyway shape or form.

      At Least Asami grew from what happened with Varrick stealing from her but Mako could have just spent the whole subplot running around without a clue and it would have achieved the same result.

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    • @ Deist Zealot

      Agreed. I did see that topic but I didn't bother to comment because like you, I wasn't sure if it was actually a sincere thing or just troll bait. I thought my laptop was bugging out on that topic because the OP's font was so damn large....

      @ Winter

      Yeah, I've ranted and ranted and ranted on Tumblr about how much Makorra pissed me off throughout the show. I already wrote a post defending Korrasami from Makorra stans on tumblr. The fact that people can go to google and type in "debunking makorra" and my post shows up as the first link makes me happy lol. That post was directed more at people who kept insisting that a Makorra relaspe made more sense than Korrasami. I wrote it a few weeks after the grand finale initially aired. I did also touch on how problematic the love triangle make Mako's character too.

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    • Okay for anyone who cares...so Mako Fanboy got all whiny in that other thread (because Neo Bahamut, Deist Zealot, and I shot down his illogical points and then we all eventually ( some sooner than others lol) totally ignored him because, well obvious stanning troll is obvious...) so since he was the OP he's deleting the thread because we were too mean and unfriendly (No really that was his reason: Mako Fanboy: The only reason I posted this thread was to meet some new friends. Unfortunately, there weren't any. I don't want to participate in any more debates. I prefer to engage in friendly, affable conversions. I hope this entire thread gets permanently deleted.) so we were no longer welcomed in his digital house (and apparently neither was he because he took the digital flaming torch to it...).... Neo Bahamut responded to something I said there and I couldn't respond back to him and it bothered me (fuck you too Mako stan) so I'm gonna do it here (what we were discussing was all Mako related anyway lol).

      Deist Zealot Wrote:
      And to people who keep stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that words have established connotations? The likely consequences to your future love life are on you.
      Neo Bahamut Wrote
      Again, that's what cults are for.

      Seriously, truer words have never been spoken...Glad Mako Fanboy finally gave it a rest even if it was in the form of storming off and destroying the playing field he created like a child...

      Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      There are depilatories marketed for use on facial hair, & I tried to find one, but I don't remember if I was successful. In any case, it did so little that I would have to doubt that it would make me go completely bald even if I were willing to test that theory by slathering my head with it. Probably would just make me look like I have a minor case of mange.

      In my experience, Nair works pretty well on body hair mainly legs. I can't shave because the hair on my legs is far too thin for a razor but just present enough to be noticeable if I leave it unchecked for too long. So I use Nair and can typically go several weeks before I have to use it again...not really sure about facial hair though (cause I don't have that problem lol).

      Yes, & I have to wonder how much they really knew about what they were commenting on.

      I think the problem was more that Bryke refused to even bother to understand what people were so upset about in the first half. They more or less spent the entire time during the Book 1 DVD commentaries defending Mako and Makorra to the point of idiocy really...

      I don't think they were satisfied with the constraints they had to work in.

      Yeah, with Korrasami that was very evident. Also, they made it clear that they had to see past their own sense of heteronormativity to even consider that Nick would allow them to officially establish Korrasami as canon. They were operating with this paradigm in mind about relationships and those assumptions got in the way of them just asking. The Makorra stans won't acknowledge that either...

      I would guess he didn't mean that in any literal "soul mate" way, but that at the time, he considered them to be a great fit, & that's just kind of a thing people say.

      Yeah, but when two people are shoved together with no real chemistry and they've barely known each other for 5-6 months and their writers are all "those two kids are meant for each other"...what else is the audience suppose to think other than "Soulmate logic" (or illogic).

      HolyDragon2808 Wrote:
      And I never really bought into the whole idea of an Avatar falling in love only once thing....
      Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      I'd never really heard of it before, & it doesn't particularly make sense. The Avatar is ultimately human, & subject to the same emotional trials & tribulations thereof.

      Agreed on that...the whole "soul mate" thing for Avatars is a lot of the bulk in the Makorra stans' arguments particularly on tumblr...To them Avatars have been proven to fall in love once (nevermind the fact that we don't have any information on even 1/10 of the line let alone all of them) and since Korra didn't go back to Mako because "reasons", her falling in love with Asami doesn't fit in with the "established lore" (but they're all too quick to dissuade their biphobia by jumping onto the Korvira ship) because Kuvira totally can handle Korra (nevermind the fact that the crazy woman nearly "handled" her to her grave when Korra wasn't in fighting form...) and Asami is just too fragile and Mako loves her and yadda yadda yadda...yeah it's as ridiculous as it sounds...

      HolyDragon2808 Wrote
      And I just love how the stans love to go on about lack of agency when it comes to Korra and Korrasami, but totally buy into this idea of soulmates...if a pre-destined unspoken bond exists between two people and that's the only reason why they fall for each other (chemistry/trust or lack thereof be damned), then there's not a whole lot of agency with that...just saying...
      Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      [http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Mako_Fanboy No, see, it's not a logical contradiction if you just define the terms so that it isn't, & that's why what you're saying here is unsound.

      Yeah, apparently not...but now that we're in a different thread, is that illogic still applicable?

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    • I had a reply of my own compiled, but then that guy ruined it by flouncing.  (I actually considered restoring the thread on the grounds of "you can flounce all you want; the adults are still talking" or something along those lines, but decided that it wasn't worth it.)

      Holydragon2808 wrote:
      I'll just take your word for it lol. I know Deist Zealot often has no chill on tumblr whatsoever though lol...

      Yeah, I suppose I have ripped the occasional strip off of the occasional reactionary or nasty Makorra holdout or shitty militant vegan or other deserving party.  But in the other thread, I was biting back my usual impulse to swear like a Marine on leave, for the sake of Mako Fanboy's tender little feelings.  (What a waste of effort that was.)

      And at least Bryke were willing to admit that Korrasami as presented wasn't a slam dunk victory but rather a significant inching forward in same sex relationships on children's television. That's more of an admission the audience received from them than when Makorra was canon and they couldn't figure out why people hated it so much...

      And yet, the holdouts complain about how Bryke are supposedly "congratulating themselves" over Korrasami.  Never mind that when Bryke were going off about how "realistic" Makorra was, and how critics were all just too young to understand it, these same individuals let that slide without a word...when they weren't praising and echoing it, anyhow.  (I see y'all, and you ain't slick.)

      And I never really bought into the whole idea of an Avatar falling in love only once thing....I mean sure, with the exceptions of Korra and Wan (because we don't know if he even had a love interest but more than likely not), the few Avatars we know about (with mentioned love interests) only had one, but where's the proof that applies to the entire freakin' line? There's 10,000 years of Avatars from Wan to Korra that we just don't know anything about to make claims like that...

      People saw Aang single-targeting on Katara, and Roku single-targeting on Ta Min.  They saw Kuruk fall hard for Ummi, and somehow managed to interpret that as single-targeting (despite his having been implied to have been kind of a player beforehand).  And because the only thing we had on Kyoshi's love life (at the time) was a dubiously-canon source (Avatar Extras, which also claimed that Zutara was originally supposed to happen) saying that she had a daughter; and because we knew absolutely nothing in that regard about any incarnation from Yangchen back to Wan?  People jumped to conclusions—especially if they had a vested interest in Makorra.

      And I just love how the stans love to go on about lack of agency when it comes to Korra and Korrasami, but totally buy into this idea of soulmates...if a pre-destined unspoken bond exists between two people and that's the only reason why they fall for each other (chemistry/trust or lack thereof be damned), then there's not a whole lot of agency with that...just saying...

      I've actually been over just that—and, more to the point, how the concept of soulmates skeeves me right out unless it's brutally deconstructed—on my blog more than once.  Called it "pretty much incompatible with character agency" once, if I recall correctly.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I don't think they were satisfied with the constraints they had to work in.

      They've implied as much, IIRC.

      On that note: there's a "what if The Legend of Korra was picked up by Adult Swim?" thread over at the AlternateHistory.com forum.  (It's members-only, but signing up is free and more than worth it.)

      I would guess he didn't mean that in any literal "soul mate" way, but that at the time, he considered them to be a great fit, & that's just kind of a thing people say.

      Well, the Makorras sure as hell interpreted it as such.  (As did a certain percentage of critics—cue a chorus of "ew.") 

      In fact, at least one holdout was in a snit over being under the false impression that Michael had actually used the word "soulmates."  (Then again: that person was also under the additional false impression that Bryan had actually called all Makorra holdouts "homophobes.")

      I mean...whether or not Korra and Mako ever were actually a great (or even good) fit for each other is certainly debatable at best.  But that's another story.

      I'd never really heard of it before, & it doesn't particularly make sense. The Avatar is ultimately human, & subject to the same emotional trials & tribulations thereof.

      Hell, "when love is real, it finds a way" has a proviso built right into it.

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    • not really sure about facial hair though (cause I don't have that problem lol).

      What I really want to do is get laser removal. Someone pointed me to Groupon, which has pretty good deals pop up now & again, but the problem is they're all at least 2 hours away.

      Yeah, but when two people are shoved together with no real chemistry and they've barely known each other for 5-6 months and their writers are all "those two kids are meant for each other"...what else is the audience suppose to think other than "Soulmate logic" (or illogic).

      That the writers need to open a window, & get some air?

      Yeah, apparently not...but now that we're in a different thread, is that illogic still applicable?

      We're in the real world now, so defining away things that don't suit your argument is special pleading, & there's not really a compelling argument for compatibilism other than to once again redefine "free will."

      On that note: there's a "what if The Legend of Korra was picked up by Adult Swim?" thread over at the AlternateHistory.com forum. (It's members-only, but signing up is free and more than worth it.)

      It'd be cheaply produced, relying either on racist & fart jokes or "avante garde" shit that isn't actually funny or clever, & gratuitously, implausibly violent?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      It'd be cheaply produced, relying either on racist & fart jokes or "avante garde" shit that isn't actually funny or clever, & gratuitously, implausibly violent?

      ...not quite.  What they went for was "Asami would be more conflicted about the conflict of Book 1, Mako would have more depth from the beginning, Bolin would desert the Earth Empire over an unjust order rather than over a threat, Opal would breathbend a dude in self-defense, Kuvira would have a more obvious body count, and Korra and Asami would get married at the end."
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    • Okay, but what I said is more accurate.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      I had a reply of my own compiled, but then that guy ruined it by flouncing.  (I actually considered restoring the thread on the grounds of "you can flounce all you want; the adults are still talking" or something along those lines, but decided that it wasn't worth it.)

      Yeah I started to see if we could get it restored but then I figured if we moved the discussion elsewhere it would be less likely to become permeated with his nonsense anyway...

      Yeah, I suppose I have ripped the occasional strip off of the occasional reactionary or nasty Makorra holdout or shitty militant vegan or other deserving party.  But in the other thread, I was biting back my usual impulse to swear like a Marine on leave, for the sake of Mako Fanboy's tender little feelings.  (What a waste of effort that was.)

      Yeah, I could tell. I was wondering why you were wasting the effort though. The whole time I was like "rip into this absurd little bastard like I know you can! Come on!

      And yet, the holdouts complain about how Bryke are supposedly "congratulating themselves" over Korrasami.  Never mind that when Bryke were going off about how "realistic" Makorra was, and how critics were all just too young to understand it, these same individuals let that slide without a word...when they weren't praising and echoing it, anyhow.  (I see y'all, and you ain't slick.)

      Yeah that's something else I forgot to mention. Like I said, how the tide has turned...

      People saw Aang single-targeting on Katara, and Roku single-targeting on Ta Min.  They saw Kuruk fall hard for Ummi, and somehow managed to interpret that as single-targeting (despite his having been implied to have been kind of a player beforehand).  And because the only thing we had on Kyoshi's love life (at the time) was a dubiously-canon source (Avatar Extras, which also claimed that Zutara was originally supposed to happen) saying that she had a daughter; and because we knew absolutely nothing in that regard about any incarnation from Yangchen back to Wan?  People jumped to conclusions—especially if they had a vested interest in Makorra.

      Yeah pretty much but that's when we get into "be careful not to cross headcanon with actual canon....

      I've actually been over just that—and, more to the point, how the concept of soulmates skeeves me right out unless it's brutally deconstructed—on my blog more than once.  Called it "pretty much incompatible with character agency" once, if I recall correctly.

      Yeah, I remember that. I also went more in depth about why I don't like the idea of "soulmates" as common media tends to portray the concept in my Debunking Makorra post. If I recall I think I said something about it forcing characters' development to primarily center around becoming the perfect person for their partner rather than them growing genuinely as individuals with their own arcs outside one another.

      Well, the Makorras sure as hell interpreted it as such.  (As did a certain percentage of critics—cue a chorus of "ew.") 

      Boy did they ever...

      In fact, at least one holdout was in a snit over being under the false impression that Michael had actually used the word "soulmates."  (Then again: that person was also under the additional false impression that Bryan had actually called all Makorra holdouts "homophobes.")

      Yep...they'll twist anything to suit their Makorra and later on biphobic agenda. So long as Makorra is canon, nothing else matters to them...

      I mean...whether or not Korra and Mako ever were actually a great (or even good) fit for each other is certainly debatable at best.  But that's another story.

      I never saw anything in the narrative that suggested they were a good fit personally and I've ranted over and over and over about it so I won't go there again...

      I'd never really heard of it before, & it doesn't particularly make sense. The Avatar is ultimately human, & subject to the same emotional trials & tribulations thereof. Hell, "when love is real, it finds a way" has a proviso built right into it.

      pretty much...

      Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      That the writers need to open a window, & get some air?

      That's one way to see it...

      We're in the real world now, so defining away things that don't suit your argument is special pleading, & there's not really a compelling argument for compatibilism other than to once again redefine "free will."

      Noted.

      It'd be cheaply produced, relying either on racist & fart jokes or "avante garde" shit that isn't actually funny or clever, & gratuitously, implausibly violent?

      That was my first guess as well after it was mentioned to be honest...

      Deist Zealot Wrote:
      ...not quite. What they went for was "Asami would be more conflicted about the conflict of Book 1, Mako would have more depth from the beginning, Bolin would desert the Earth Empire over an unjust order rather than over a threat, Opal would breathbend a dude in self-defense, Kuvira would have a more obvious body count, and Korra and Asami would get married at the end."

      I'd be down with that so long as they could keep the fun and humor the show is known for intact as well in some way.

      Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      What I really want to do is get laser removal. Someone pointed me to Groupon, which has pretty good deals pop up now & again, but the problem is they're all at least 2 hours away.

      Damn that sucks....but it probably would suit your needs the most so the two hour drive may very well be worth it in the long run...sorry for some reason I didn't see this until now lol...

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    • Toonami would make a bit more sense, but barely.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Okay, but what I said is more accurate.

      Unfortunately, you're probably right.  What I think the participants in the discussion were trying for was "same crew, same basic principles behind the concept, but there's more that they can get away with."

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    • That's why I say that Toonami would make more sense, though even that's kind of eh. Most of what they show is anime or old programs that were already hosted elsewhere.

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    • I remember back during the finale that several people suggested the series should become a Netflix exclusive or Hulu or some sort of online service. Anything would be better than Dickelodeon...

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    • But at the same time, had TLoK not aired on Nickelodeon as a Y-7 rated show, then I don't think same sex parings would (or ever will) gain the traction they need to become more explicitly depicted on children's networks in general....I mean of course they won't go full blown sex scenes or whatever (we don't even have that for heterosexual pairings on Y-7 shows) but a kiss or more obvious flirting or something to that degree....as much as I resent "Dickelodeon" for their treatment of the Avatar franchise in general, I will give them points for that at least....

      And on that note, there will unfortunately always be people around to halt progress on that front...like this person for example ....

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    • I found this to be an interesting take on Korrasami and just shipping in general. I wonder if the stans will ever recognize the difference between disliking a ship and dismissing it....doubt it.

      I was gonna link it in that other thread but I don't want to deal with that Mako/Makorra stan at all...

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    • Hey, why not respond to some random blog post, I'll take any excuse to avoid doing actual work:

      I meant to write this a few weeks ago when I saw a sudden resurgence of antipathy between the Korrasmi and Makorra fandoms. There was “All Makorra shippers are homophobes” accusations from some members of the Korrasami fandom, and there was outright homophobia from some members of the Makorra fandom, and it was generally unpleasant.

      The latter's not hard to believe, & I'll just take his word on the former.

      As the post title says, simply not liking the Korrasami relationship or the ending to The Legend of Korra does not necessarily make you a homophobe. There are a thousand different reasons not to like the ship or finale, as there are with every single TV show and romantic couple that has ever been written.

      Obviously, but I think this person is overlooking the existence of dog whistles. Even among people who are opposing things like gay marriage, it is very rare for them to come right out & say, "You know, I just don't like gay people." The simple fact is that I have no way of knowing someone's real motives.

      Not liking something doesn’t mean you hate what it represents. We in the Korrasami fandom can’t just dismiss every criticism or remark from the Makorra fandom as homophobic just because their ship is m/f.

      Yeah, some of those arguments are wrong for other reasons!

      Address all complaints to the empty room in which I store my fucks.

      However, dismissing Korrasami–saying that they’re not together at the close of the finale, that it doesn’t “count”, that it’s not “real”–is homophobic.

      This isn't quite how it's usually framed, which goes back to what I said about dog whistles. If you can spend an eternity on arguing whether or not there was "proper development" without technically saying that it didn't happen, you can achieve the same effect while still having a convenient escape hatch. Otherwise, I agree with this part.

      This doesn’t mean that you can’t still ship Makorra, or write fanfic or change the ending.

      I don't care what they want to do, I'm not going to read it anyway.

      I’ve seen Korrasami fanfic that re-wrote the series back to the first season to get them together then, even at points when Asami or Korra were honestly with Mako.

      I didn't tend to read those either, but I don't think you can entirely separate the differing contexts here. Korrasami Fanfics, at that point, were purely a What If Scenario, & also expressing a desire for something that seemed unattainable. But we KNOW What If Makorra, it already happened, & there will be no shortage of other Makorras in the future.

      So fanficing that just comes across, at best, as kind of desperate to ignore the elephant in the room: "I think we both know that this--us--doesn't work." I have exactly the same sentiment on Zutara fanfics--do what you want, but I'm always going to think it's kind of ridiculous, at best.

      That is the very essence of fanfic, re-writing what happened to give you what you wanted, but you need to recognize that you are changing what happened.

      See, I think the blatant wish fulfillment element is the worst aspect of fanfiction. Don't get me wrong, that element is present in RCR (yes, I'm going to link to it from now on), the Purist Leader was a pretty blatant reaction to my dissatisfaction with Amon being a bender. But if I'm going to read a fan fiction (or write one, apparently), I find I should walk away with it with an impression that the writer had something to say other than "I really wanted it to happen this way."

      If you want to write a post-finale canon continuation of the series that has Makorra at its center, then you need to explain how Korra and Asami broke up, because in canon they ended the series as a couple (And you need be careful here in general to make sure that you breaking them up doesn’t delve into homophobia all on its own).

      I don't recommend it. If you're going to do it, I recommend doing it the way Katherine did it here. She basically just says that she has nothing against any other pairing, but she likes Borra, & she needed it to happen for the plot she had in mind to work. So, as far as that universe is concerned, that's what went down. Straightforward, honest, sensible, & ignores any of the obvious minefield that is trying to show some breakup. Though Asami is also evil in that universe, which I guess means she couldn't have even if she wanted to, so--y'know what, that's beside the point.

      In fact, I don't really care if you want to write "they left as friends & came back that way," provided it's clear you acknowledge that's not really how it happens, & you're just doing it that way because that's the way you need it to go. Preferably for reasons other than just shipping. Like, you can write a shipping story that still has some kind of a theme to it, & maybe this theme just so happens to be best served using Makorra. I have no idea what that might be, but it's at least theoretically possible.

      I don't really have any vehement disagreement with this post, but I don't think it really hits what I consider the crux of the matter. I don't care what someone wants to dislike/dismiss/whatever, just don't make it some weird obsession. Going back to the Bleach example, there were people who did things like burn merchandise because the shipping didn't go their way, & while that was an extreme, there was also a lot of "joking" denial that didn't really feel like much of a joke & conspiracy theories that it wasn't the "true" ending that Kubo had originally planned. That's weird. You're weird. Stop being weird.

      Also, someone responded with whatever this is:

      I’m just paying attention to the “not all makorra fans are homophobes part”. Like I had an argument a while back with people telling me I was “secretly homophobic” because I didn’t like Korra and Asami together and shipped makorra. I think that’s where people cross a line, and it becomes hetero-phobia instead. Say what you want about rights but clearly, they’re just offended because not everyone is gay, and that makes them unaccepting and homophobic. Thank you for bringing this to people’s attention. Much love to the community and the kind korrasami shippers like you who are smart enough to realize what we’re thinking. ❤️
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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Hey, why not respond to some random blog post, I'll take any excuse to avoid doing actual work:

      Same here. I was on tumblr earlier (just surfing the blue hellpit out of sheer boredom really and I don't post too often but I try to like or reblog something so people who follow me know I'm still alive lol) and stumbled across that post.

      The latter's not hard to believe, & I'll just take his word on the former.

      The former applies more to the korrasami stanners or trolls (stanners exist in all shipping fandoms really) back during the finale.

      Obviously, but I think this person is overlooking the existence of dog whistles. Even among people who are opposing things like gay marriage, it is very rare for them to come right out & say, "You know, I just don't like gay people." The simple fact is that I have no way of knowing someone's real motives.

      Indeed, but I think this person's point was that if you debate with a person long enough (say someone like Foxie), their homophobic/biphobic bullshit becomes apparent in other ways even if the person doesn't outright admit to it. Arrogance aside, there's not really much of a motivation there to spread that sort of crap with people like Foxie other than homophobia/biphobia IMO....

      Yeah, some of those arguments are wrong for other reasons!Address all complaints to the empty room in which I store my fucks.

      Yep.

      This isn't quite how it's usually framed, which goes back to what I said about dog whistles. If you can spend an eternity on arguing whether or not there was "proper development" without technically saying that it didn't happen, you can achieve the same effect while still having a convenient escape hatch. Otherwise, I agree with this part.

      Indeed, but trust me, during the time of the finale (which I believe this post was written around that time), there were quite a few arguments that were framed in that context. Not so much now though, but you're still right about the dog whistles of our world regardless.

      I don't care what they want to do, I'm not going to read it anyway.

      Not something I'm going to actively look for, but short of ridiculousness like Foxie's Second Chances Korvira nonsense, I'm willing to give a few things a chance.

      I didn't tend to read those either, but I don't think you can entirely separate the differing contexts here. Korrasami Fanfics, at that point, were purely a What If Scenario, & also expressing a desire for something that seemed unattainable. But we KNOW What If Makorra, it already happened, & there will be no shortage of other Makorras in the future. So fanficing that just comes across, at best, as kind of desperate to ignore the elephant in the room: "I think we both know that this--us--doesn't work." I have exactly the same sentiment on Zutara fanfics--do what you want, but I'm always going to think it's kind of ridiculous, at best.

      Outside the context of AUs like you said, same here. Even now I still don't understand Zutara at all personally or why so many people thought those two were a possibility....

      See, I think the blatant wish fulfillment element is the worst aspect of fanfiction. Don't get me wrong, that element is present in RCR (yes, I'm going to link to it from now on), the Purist Leader was a pretty blatant reaction to my dissatisfaction with Amon being a bender. But if I'm going to read a fan fiction (or write one, apparently), I find I should walk away with it with an impression that the writer had something to say other than "I really wanted it to happen this way."

      Agreed.

      I don't recommend it. If you're going to do it, I recommend doing it the way Katherine did it here. She basically just says that she has nothing against any other pairing, but she likes Borra, & she needed it to happen for the plot she had in mind to work. So, as far as that universe is concerned, that's what went down. Straightforward, honest, sensible, & ignores any of the obvious minefield that is trying to show some breakup. Though Asami is also evil in that universe, which I guess means she couldn't have even if she wanted to, so--y'know what, that's beside the point.

      In fact, I don't really care if you want to write "they left as friends & came back that way," provided it's clear you acknowledge that's not really how it happens, & you're just doing it that way because that's the way you need it to go. Preferably for reasons other than just shipping. Like, you can write a shipping story that still has some kind of a theme to it, & maybe this theme just so happens to be best served using Makorra. I have no idea what that might be, but it's at least theoretically possible.

      I don't really have any vehement disagreement with this post, but I don't think it really hits what I consider the crux of the matter. I don't care what someone wants to dislike/dismiss/whatever, just don't make it some weird obsession. Going back to the Bleach example, there were people who did things like burn merchandise because the shipping didn't go their way, & while that was an extreme, there was also a lot of "joking" denial that didn't really feel like much of a joke & conspiracy theories that it wasn't the "true" ending that Kubo had originally planned. That's weird. You're weird. Stop being weird.

      Yeah, that was the only part of her post that I had any real disagreement with. People can still write AU fanfics or something that bypass those minefields altogether and they shouldn't automatically be labeled as homophobic just because they don't adhere to canon (that's sort of the point of an AU fanfic). A lot of people do so without shipping in mind at all. They just have an idea in their minds they need to get out sometimes.

      Oh and is hetero-phobia a thing? Pardon my ignorance (really not trying to be sarcastic here)...I mean people here about homophobia all the time and it's very real but is the reverse also true? Don't really hear anything about heterophobia....

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    • The former applies more to the korrasami stanners or trolls (stanners exist in all shipping fandoms really) back during the finale.

      I find it plausible that those people exist, I'm just saying that I've never seen them, but I've seen a whole bunch of the other.

      Indeed, but I think this person's point was that if you debate with a person long enough (say someone like Foxie), their homophobic/biphobic bullshit becomes apparent in other ways even if the person doesn't outright admit to it.

      Their point seems to be not to accuse all Makorra shippers of being homophobes, which comes across to me as a deepity. It is true that not all Makorra shippers are homophobes, but trivial, since nobody's really arguing that. Since this misses the finer subtext of the situation, it becomes meaningless.

      Now, I should say, I'm not trying to shove words in this person's mouth. It is entirely plausible that, would they hear my criticisms, they would rephrase to clarify. I'm just saying where I think the post falls short, as it is written, because I guess it's something to do.

      Indeed, but trust me, during the time of the finale (which I believe this post was written around that time), there were quite a few arguments that were framed in that context. Not so much now though, but you're still right about the dog whistles of our world regardless.

      That is true. A lot of it was ignorance of the confirmation, but I do remember there being more blatant denial. I believe I also said similar things to the blog post around the same time, because I hadn't anticipated the turn the arguments would eventually take.

      Not something I'm going to actively look for, but short of ridiculousness like Foxie's Second Chances Korvira nonsense, I'm willing to give a few things a chance.

      I read veeeeeeeery little fan fiction as-is, but there are some genres I'm even less inclined to read than others. If someone is reading this & thinking, "Hey, I have a Makorra fanfiction that doesn't disrespect Korrasami at all & is actually pretty good!" I believe you dude, & no offense to you, but I'm just so fucking done with Makorra. I didn't like it very much to begin with, & when I tried to give it a chance, the writers yanked the rug out from under me. It was really irritating, & just soured me to the whole thing, so while I never say never, odds are that I probably won't read your fan fiction.

      Outside the context of AUs like you said, same here. Even now I still don't understand Zutara at all personally or why so many people thought those two were a possibility....

      I don't understand shippers in general, & despite the common criticism, it's not just a matter of canon or not. I happen to think Naruto has terrible canon pairings, albeit that admittedly has more to do with Kishimoto writing the romances so atrociously that there was pretty much no "right way" possible.

      Yeah, that was the only part of her post that I had any real disagreement with. People can still write AU fanfics or something that bypass those minefields altogether and they shouldn't automatically be labeled as homophobic just because they don't adhere to canon (that's sort of the point of an AU fanfic).

      I don't think they really thought about alternate universes here at all. Their position seems to only comment on altered ending fan fictions. That either you should rewrite further back, or you should depict them breaking up respectfully, but not just go "everything happened the same way, but they were never together."

      For my part, I think the second idea is terrible because it's just asking for trouble--while you CAN do it well, it is very, very likely to go wrong, so you might as well just save yourself the headache--& I don't have a problem with someone doing the 3rd thing per se. I get what this person is saying, it's kind of like the fanart of Kazui Kurosaki with "Rukia hair" that I found so goddamn annoying with Bleach, but it wasn't that fan art itself I had a problem with, it was the clear subtext. If someone wants to say, "For the purposes of this story, everything went basically the same, except Korra & Asami were just friends," & they're not exhibiting any kind of malice, it doesn't really bother me.

      A lot of people do so without shipping in mind at all. They just have an idea in their minds they need to get out sometimes.

      Yeah, & not all changed ending fan fics exist only to ship either.

      I don't really have any vehement disagreement with this post, but I don't think it really hits what I consider the crux of the matter. I don't care what someone wants to dislike/dismiss/whatever, just don't make it some weird obsession. Going back to the Bleach example, there were people who did things like burn merchandise because the shipping didn't go their way, & while that was an extreme, there was also a lot of "joking" denial that didn't really feel like much of a joke & conspiracy theories that it wasn't the "true" ending that Kubo had originally planned. That's weird. You're weird. Stop being weird.

      Yeah, that was the only part of her post that I had any real disagreement with. People can still write AU fanfics or something that bypass those minefields altogether and they shouldn't automatically be labeled as homophobic just because they don't adhere to canon (that's sort of the point of an AU fanfic). A lot of people do so without shipping in mind at all. They just have an idea in their minds they need to get out sometimes.

      Oh and is hetero-phobia a thing? Pardon my ignorance (really not trying to be sarcastic here)...I mean people here about homophobia all the time and it's very real but is the reverse also true? Don't really hear anything about heterophobia....
      I've never seen any reputable source talking about it. It appears to be "a thing" in the sense that "reverse racism" or "white genocide" is a thing. Arguably even less credible, because at least I have actually seen people use eugenics arguments regarding Europeans. Statistically speaking, I suppose there have to be some people, somewhere, who hate straight people because they are straight, but the mere existence of something doesn't make it significantly relevant.
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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I find it plausible that those people exist, I'm just saying that I've never seen them, but I've seen a whole bunch of the other.

      I saw a lot on tumblr back then that I honestly wish I could unsee...Foxie's meltdown and her Second Chances premise (because I didn't even bother to read the fanfic) being among the top...

      Their point seems to be not to accuse all Makorra shippers of being homophobes, which comes across to me as a deepity. It is true that not all Makorra shippers are homophobes, but trivial, since nobody's really arguing that. Since this misses the finer subtext of the situation, it becomes meaningless. Now, I should say, I'm not trying to shove words in this person's mouth. It is entirely plausible that, would they hear my criticisms, they would rephrase to clarify. I'm just saying where I think the post falls short, as it is written, because I guess it's something to do.

      We're both just really bored here. I get it and I agree with the critique there. I was just pointing out what I thought of when I read it.

      That is true. A lot of it was ignorance of the confirmation, but I do remember there being more blatant denial. I believe I also said similar things to the blog post around the same time, because I hadn't anticipated the turn the arguments would eventually take.

      We were all young then...I don't think the fandom anticipated a lot of what happened....Korrasami gaining canon status only being the beginning back then...

      I read veeeeeeeery little fan fiction as-is, but there are some genres I'm even less inclined to read than others. If someone is reading this & thinking, "Hey, I have a Makorra fanfiction that doesn't disrespect Korrasami at all & is actually pretty good!" I believe you dude, & no offense to you, but I'm just so fucking done with Makorra. I didn't like it very much to begin with, & when I tried to give it a chance, the writers yanked the rug out from under me. It was really irritating, & just soured me to the whole thing, so while I never say never, odds are that I probably won't read your fan fiction.

      Fair enough. I agree with you about being burnt out on Makorra definitely. Like I said, its something I'm not going to actively look for but if someone comes with me with something like you described I would at least be willing to look at it. I'm way more into Borra or Korrasami stuff though, especially the former...The ship that got lost at sea....

      Though I'm weird in a way. I get in certain "moods" for things. Like I'll go a few months straight in my spare time doing almost nothing but playing video games. Then I might switch over to doing nothing but watching anime or old childhood shows in my spare time for a few more months. Then I might switch over to doing nothing but reading/writing fanfiction (though I've never actually posted any of my work online because I'm shy like that lol). Not necessarily in that order or that organized either. It just depends with me. I'm in my fanfiction reading mood at the moment though.

      I don't understand shippers in general, & despite the common criticism, it's not just a matter of canon or not. I happen to think Naruto has terrible canon pairings, albeit that admittedly has more to do with Kishimoto writing the romances so atrociously that there was pretty much no "right way" possible.

      I haven't watched much of Naruto (made the mistake of trying to watch it on Cartoon Network back in the day and Naruto's English voice got on my last nerve) so I can't comment on those ships. Though, like you, I never really understood shipping period until I watched TLoK. As I've mentioned in other threads, unless two characters' trajectories are already on a romantic path together then I'm not going to "ship" them in my mind. I'm usually fine with (or at least can see the logic behind) most canon depicted parings across various media. I was onboard the Borra ship the minute they were introduced because to me they just seemed like they'd be canon in the end (reminded me of the early Kataang days), but evidently I was wrong.

      I don't think they really thought about alternate universes here at all. Their position seems to only comment on altered ending fan fictions. That either you should rewrite further back, or you should depict them breaking up respectfully, but not just go "everything happened the same way, but they were never together."

      Yeah, that's true but it felt like there was no room for any other exception to said rule to me the way it was worded. That the existence AUs weren't even a factor period though I guess what you said would make more sense. Wording was just weird there to me....

      For my part, I think the second idea is terrible because it's just asking for trouble--while you CAN do it well, it is very, very likely to go wrong, so you might as well just save yourself the headache--& I don't have a problem with someone doing the 3rd thing per se. I get what this person is saying, it's kind of like the fanart of Kazui Kurosaki with "Rukia hair" that I found so goddamn annoying with Bleach, but it wasn't that fan art itself I had a problem with, it was the clear subtext. If someone wants to say, "For the purposes of this story, everything went basically the same, except Korra & Asami were just friends," & they're not exhibiting any kind of malice, it doesn't really bother me.

      Agreed.

      Yeah, & not all changed ending fan fics exist only to ship either.

      Yep.

      I've never seen any reputable source talking about it. It appears to be "a thing" in the sense that "reverse racism" or "white genocide" is a thing. Arguably even less credible, because at least I have actually seen people use eugenics arguments regarding Europeans. Statistically speaking, I suppose there have to be some people, somewhere, who hate straight people because they are straight, but the mere existence of something doesn't make it significantly relevant.

      Yeah whether or not heterophobia was relevant in general is what I was getting at. I might look into that because I'm bored right now with nothing else to do.

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    • I saw a lot on tumblr back then that I honestly wish I could unsee...Foxie's meltdown and her Second Chances premise (because I didn't even bother to read the fanfic) being among the top...

      I meant Korrasami shippers who are the Oprah of calling people homophobes.

      We're both just really bored here. I get it and I agree with the critique there. I was just pointing out what I thought of when I read it.

      Well, now I'm doing this in between reading creepypasta, editing, & emptying the dishwasher. Before, I was procrastinating on doing those things.

      Fair enough. I agree with you about being burnt out on Makorra definitely. Like I said, its something I'm not going to actively look for but if someone comes with me with something like you described I would at least be willing to look at it.

      I only look at things that either really pique my interest or might be so awful that they're hilarious.

      I'm way more into Borra or Korrasami stuff though, especially the former...The ship that got lost at sea....

      "If not Borra/Korrasami, then the other one" seems to be a common sentiment.

      Though I'm weird in a way. I get in certain "moods" for things. Like I'll go a few months straight in my spare time doing almost nothing but playing video games. Then I might switch over to doing nothing but watching anime or old childhood shows in my spare time for a few more months.

      I think that's actually pretty common.

      Then I might switch over to doing nothing but reading/writing fanfiction (though I've never actually posted any of my work online because I'm shy like that lol). Not necessarily in that order or that organized either.

      I'm still not really sure why I did it. I'm not particularly fond of fan fiction, I hate the idea of other people seeing my writing, my whole decision process seemed to be "fuck it, we're doing this!" Actually, I think partly it was initially intended to be a glorified ad for an RPG site that's now probably dying. As if it hasn't been doing that extremely slowly over the last decade.

      I haven't watched much of Naruto (made the mistake of trying to watch it on Cartoon Network back in the day and Naruto's English voice got on my last nerve) so I can't comment on those ships.

      It really has to do with problems that go much deeper than the ships themselves...BELIEVE IT!

      Actually, he's not really much better in Japanese, & I think Naruto has a pretty good dub cast.

      I'm usually fine with (or at least can see the logic behind) most canon depicted parings across various media. I was onboard the Borra ship the minute they were introduced because to me they just seemed like they'd be canon in the end (reminded me of the early Kataang days), but evidently I was wrong.

      I think the second Mako was all, "I can't date Korra 'cause I'm with Asami" to his brother, I immediately went, "Oh shit, we're doing that." I think the thing with canonicity is that, if it's what the writer planned on, it's what they're going to spend the most time developing, & so odds are it's the one which makes the most sense to anyone without their head up their ass. It doesn't strictly "prove" anything, but it will usually be correlated with the relatively better written pairing. If they're doing a love triangle, the "runner up" will likely be a close second, & maybe it won't be completely clear which one is the race horse until near the end. My stance is generally that the plot & character development matters, not "shipping" per se.

      Yeah, that's true but it felt like there was no room for any other exception to said rule to me the way it was worded. That the existence AUs weren't even a factor period though I guess what you said would make more sense. Wording was just weird there to me....

      It is a strange oversight.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      I saw a lot on tumblr back then that I honestly wish I could unsee...Foxie's meltdown and her Second Chances premise (because I didn't even bother to read the fanfic) being among the top...

      And Lunastar's meltdown; and Maggie acting like she had issues with the ending that totally weren't about Korrasami, but then saying that some shoehorned Makorra ending would have "fixed it."  Ew.

      I was onboard the Borra ship the minute they were introduced because to me they just seemed like they'd be canon in the end (reminded me of the early Kataang days), but evidently I was wrong.

      Yeah; Bolin was literally the only male character with whom I was ever able to 'ship Korra.  For a while there, I was kind of convinced that they were going to slow-burn them. (You know...back when Korra and Mako were clearly not working out, all of Bo's romances failed somehow, Opal wasn't yet introduced, and Asami wasn't flirting with Korra yet and no one thought Bryke could get away with pairing them anyway.)

      Yep.

      Again: I spared the Red Lotus minibosses in a fanfic so that they could suffer.

      Yeah whether or not heterophobia was relevant in general is what I was getting at. I might look into that because I'm bored right now with nothing else to do.

      There are queer people who are honest-to-higher-power afraid of straight people, usually due to past experiences.  But are there people who want to directly or indirectly harm straight people just for being straight, out of pure malice or some fucked-up sense of rectitude?  Not on any statistically significant, much less institutional, level; and claims to the contrary tend to come packaged with particularly virulent vested interests.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I meant Korrasami shippers who are the Oprah of calling people homophobes.

      Oh I was aware of what you meant. I was just lamenting the fact that I'll never unsee a lot of tumblr vitriol and homophobic crap from the TLoK finale days....Try as I might...

      I only look at things that either really pique my interest or might be so awful that they're hilarious.

      Yep. That pretty much sums it up.

      "If not Borra/Korrasami, then the other one" seems to be a common sentiment.

      Yeah....don't get me wrong I love Korrasami and I'm happy with that conclusion anything was better than ending the show with Makorra but I was directly invested in Borra long before I was with Korrasami. I will forever maintain that Borra would have made far more sense in the first half of the show if not a slow burnt relationship from start to finish with them. But to be fair, Makorra might have worked had they not focused so much on emphasizing the drama surrounding the relationship (love triangle, outside disagreements and conflicts, etc) and worked on actually making Makorra a convincing romance....

      I'm still not really sure why I did it. I'm not particularly fond of fan fiction, I hate the idea of other people seeing my writing, my whole decision process seemed to be "fuck it, we're doing this!" Actually, I think partly it was initially intended to be a glorified ad for an RPG site that's now probably dying. As if it hasn't been doing that extremely slowly over the last decade.

      I admit to having a soft spot for fanfiction. Call it a guilty pleasure I suppose. Though it's only for a select few fandoms like Final Fantasy, The Legend of Dragoon, ATLA/TLoK, Fairy Tail and a few other games and shows and that's about it.

      It really has to do with problems that go much deeper than the ships themselves...BELIEVE IT!

      Ugh...that "Believe it" crap...I've heard that he tones that down but now I think there's so much to catch up with regarding Naruto that I probably won't ever get around to watching the series....

      I think the second Mako was all, "I can't date Korra 'cause I'm with Asami" to his brother, I immediately went, "Oh shit, we're doing that." I think the thing with canonicity is that, if it's what the writer planned on, it's what they're going to spend the most time developing, & so odds are it's the one which makes the most sense to anyone without their head up their ass. It doesn't strictly "prove" anything, but it will usually be correlated with the relatively better written pairing. If they're doing a love triangle, the "runner up" will likely be a close second, & maybe it won't be completely clear which one is the race horse until near the end. My stance is generally that the plot & character development matters, not "shipping" per se.

      Yeah, it became pretty apparent which ship was their intention the minute Asami was introduced and then the whole "The Spirit of Competition" episode afterwards (unfortunately it wasn't Borra....). I just meant before that moment, I thought Bolin and Korra were cute together and they made the most sense plot and character wise for me...Even now I would skip the entirety of The Spirit of Competition episode if not for the cute Borra date. It was especially weird to me because prior to episode 5, it seemed like Mako was onboard the Borra ship himself. Then the writers completely (and randomly if we're being honest) flipped the script.

      I miss the pre love triangle Masami days to be honest. It was one of the few times before the love triangle where we got to see a different side to Mako's character. I hope (should they pair Mako with the Fire Nation Princess) that we'll see more of that side of him again (preferably this time without a bunch of forced love triangle contrivances...)

      Either way the entire fiasco was so poorly portrayed that it doesn't matter to me. If they were going for "realism" I would have suspected Bolin to be bothered more about the fact that his own brother moved in on his crush when Mako already had Asami; I would expect Asami to have actually broken up with Mako in Turning The Tides (when she was questioning him about both the Makorra kiss and his feelings for Korra) and instead of waiting on him to do so; I would expect Korra to doubt being with Mako more (he did screw over and lie to Asami whether intentionally or not and could (and did later) do the same to her), and I would expect Mako to be alienated from the group far more than he actually was for the crap he pulled until he properly apologized and shaped up.

      Deist Zealot Wrote:
      And Lunastar's meltdown; and Maggie acting like she had issues with the ending that totally weren't about Korrasami, but then saying that some shoehorned Makorra ending would have "fixed it." Ew.

      I still can't place Lunastar (I know she sounds familiar and I'm sure I've read some of her nonsense in the past) but I do remember Maggie and her nonsense clearly too...Foxie just comes to mind first because if I recall, she was the only one who went to Bryke directly with her bullshit...

      Yeah; Bolin was literally the only male character with whom I was ever able to 'ship Korra. For a while there, I was kind of convinced that they were going to slow-burn them. (You know...back when Korra and Mako were clearly not working out, all of Bo's romances failed somehow, Opal wasn't yet introduced, and Asami wasn't flirting with Korra yet and no one thought Bryke could get away with pairing them anyway.)

      Yeah, either Borra or Korrasami would have worked just fine. And as I said before even though I wasn't actively rooting for Mako and Korra to be together back then (though I didn't start directly hating the pairing until episode 5 of book one), they could have worked too had the show focused more on developing their actual dynamic and not the drama surrounding it...

      There are queer people who are honest-to-higher-power afraid of straight people, usually due to past experiences. But are there people who want to directly or indirectly harm straight people just for being straight, out of pure malice or some fucked-up sense of rectitude? Not on any statistically significant, much less institutional, level; and claims to the contrary tend to come packaged with particularly virulent vested interests.

      Yeah, the fear I definitely can understand and know that exists, but that bold part is what I was gonna look into. Of course some people like that exist, I imagine (for every action there's a reaction). Either way, regardless of orientation, I still say it's wrong to attack anyone for that reason. People have no more control over their orientation than they do their skin or eye color really.

      And I'm still trying to figure out why this world views homosexuality as such a sin. Don't get me wrong, I've seen the reasons stated (The Bible supposedly saying it is being the top one) but I look at all of that and I'm just like "Is it really that big of a deal? Should it be this big of a deal? Truly, why is it such a big deal? Would the man upstairs (God) really have such a problem with homosexuality?" Would anyone really care about the supposed sin if homosexuality wasn't mentioned period in the Bible? Just wondering...

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    • Ugh...that "Believe it" crap...I've heard that he tones that down but now I think there's so much to catch up with regarding Naruto that I probably won't ever get around to watching the series....

      Yes, it's much less worse after the timeskip. Weebs of course say that the Japanese is better, but I'm not sure why listening to "dattebayo" over & over again wouldn't be annoying either. As much as I enjoyed Naruto up until the Pain Arc, I can't say I recommend it in the long run.

      I miss the pre love triangle Masami days to be honest. It was one of the few times before the love triangle where we got to see a different side to Mako's character. I hope (should they pair Mako with the Fire Nation Princess) that we'll see more of that side of him again (preferably this time without a bunch of forced love triangle contrivances...)

      Oh, my, yes.

      Yeah, the fear I definitely can understand and know that exists,

      What I want to know is, how can you tell?

      but that bold part is what I was gonna look into. Of course some people like that exist, I imagine (for every action there's a reaction).

      Newton's Law is that there's an equal & opposite reaction, so that isn't really a great metaphor here/pedantry.

      And I'm still trying to figure out why this world views homosexuality as such a sin. Don't get me wrong, I've seen the reasons stated (The Bible supposedly saying it is being the top one) but I look at all of that and I'm just like "Is it really that big of a deal? Should it be this big of a deal? Truly, why is it such a big deal? Would the man upstairs (God) really have such a problem with homosexuality?" Would anyone really care about the supposed sin if homosexuality wasn't mentioned period in the Bible? Just wondering...

      There appear to be various socio-cultural factors involved. It's not really correct to lay western attitudes--which have had a widespread effect, due to both colonialism & the offshoot of Islam--entirely on Judeo-Christianity, but that being a big part of it, my theory is that the Israelites prohibited homosexuality for the same reason they practiced arranged marriages. According to the Old Testament, they were basically always at war, & for a civilization that is disproportionately warlike to their population size, replacement rate would be a very serious concern.

      But I'm no anthropologist, & when I brought this up to someone who was, he said it was possible but he wasn't so sure it was a safe conclusion. He mentioned specifically that it's unclear if the Israelites actually were that warlike, or if they were mostly blowing smoke up people's asses (my phrasing).

      America is also still seeped in the ghost of Cold War paranoia, & from what I've read, gay people were targeted alongside communists, as they were seen as vulnerable targets for blackmail & bribery, & thus threats to the state. In fact, I've seen it proposed that they make a common political scapegoat in general, because it's easier to turn people against a small subpopulation, & it keeps them distracted from your own bullshit. Obviously, we saw this at the end of World War I, with the "stabbed in the back" myth, blaming Jews, Communists, & "degenerates" for Germany's loss, when it was really poor leadership fighting an unwinnable war.

      I shouldn't forget, of course, the observed link between homophobia & misogyny: That femininity is seen as improper for men, & male homosexuality is viewed as effeminate. This goes a long way toward explaining the observed pattern that there are more lesbians & bisexual women in media these days than non-straight men. Not that I'm saying you should read anything Freudian* into that, since I happened to make the protagonist of RCR a lesbian.

      I think it mostly comes down to the culture. There are a lot of complex factors governing how subcultures relate to each other, but there doesn't seem to be any biological imperative. As one of my professors noted, homophobia doesn't really make sense from an evolutionary point of view, because some people not having heterosexual sex really just means less competition for you.

      • =Ironically, this seems to be one of the few things that Freud was relatively correct about, since he cautioned his colleagues against pseudoscientific anti-gay hysteria--to no avail, unfortunately.
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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Yes, it's much less worse after the timeskip. Weebs of course say that the Japanese is better, but I'm not sure why listening to "dattebayo" over & over again wouldn't be annoying either. As much as I enjoyed Naruto up until the Pain Arc, I can't say I recommend it in the long run.

      So I've heard, though it will be quite some time if at all before I get around to watching it.

      What I want to know is, how can you tell?

      How can I tell what? How real the fear is? If that's what you're asking, well even though I'm heterosexual, I was a member of my local college's GSA (Gay-Straight Alliance) before my graduation (though I still check in from time to time and help when I can) and a few of the gay members shared some of their experiences and heterophobia being among them. I won't betray their confidence here, but let's just say that I've known heterophobia was a real thing for a while. What I was unsure of, however, was whether or not this drives homosexual people to hurt heterosexuals in the same ways done to them at all (haven't come across hardly any online stories about heterosexual people being targeted by a homosexual person out of fear and hatred). That's what I was going to look into, though I'm aware that even if such a thing does exist, then it would hardly be the same statistically as homosexual hate crimes...

      Newton's Law is that there's an equal & opposite reaction, so that isn't really a great metaphor here/pedantry.

      Well, in my head the equality was the fear itself even if the effect isn't equal. Like I'd imagine (on an individual level) that a homophobe would be just as wary of a homosexual person as a heterophobe would be a heterosexual person (and homo/hetero are opposites so...)...yeah maybe not the best metaphor I admit lol...but that's where my mind was at the time.

      I think it mostly comes down to the culture. There are a lot of complex factors governing how subcultures relate to each other, but there doesn't seem to be any biological imperative. As one of my professors noted, homophobia doesn't really make sense from an evolutionary point of view, because some people not having heterosexual sex really just means less competition for you.
      • =Ironically, this seems to be one of the few things that Freud was relatively correct about, since he cautioned his colleagues against pseudoscientific anti-gay hysteria--to no avail, unfortunately.

      That first bold part is something I came to the conclusion to on my own a long time ago which is why people making a big deal out of homosexuality both during this time and across the ages is something I just can't get my head around. If everyone was heterosexual, I think we'd be even more overly populated on this earth than we already are to be honest....seems like nature's way of keeping the balance if you ask me...

      As for Freud, well if a lot of his theories weren't just out there to start with then I'd imagine people would have heeded him more...

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    • How can I tell what? How real the fear is?

      If someone is straight or not.

      I won't betray their confidence here, but let's just say that I've known heterophobia was a real thing for a while.

      Wait, are we still talking about fear, or are we now talking about malicious prejudice? The term "phobia" can mean both.

      Well, in my head the equality was the fear itself even if the effect isn't equal. Like I'd imagine (on an individual level) that a homophobe would be just as wary of a homosexual person as a heterophobe would be a heterosexual person (and homo/hetero are opposites so...)...yeah maybe not the best metaphor I admit lol...but that's where my mind was at the time.

      I really, really do not think most people are actually all that afraid of gay people. In fact, they tend to bristle at the assertion. I'm sure there's some abstract fear underlying their actions, but it seems more driven by disgust or resentment. And at the top of the pyramid, I really think a lot of the people promoting it are amoral & out for their own self-interest. I don't for a second believe that people like the Duggars or the Phelpses don't know that they're lying, they just don't care.

      That first bold part is something I came to the conclusion to on my own a long time ago which is why people making a big deal out of homosexuality both during this time and across the ages is something I just can't get my head around.

      I can't say I ever really thought about it in those terms before I took that course, mainly since I've always gravitated more towards cooperative selection as an explanation for human behavior. Even in those terms, I felt it was a pretty weak argument that homophobia was some sort of biological imperative. It's just not borne out by historical/cultural studies, nor by children's reactions when they find out about homosexuality without any kind of "teacher bias" attached.

      Actually, I don't think it was considered much of a big deal for most of human history. A lot of the cultures which have considered it a big deal shared some kind of common lineage. In fact, our whole conception of how we think about same sex attraction would be pretty foreign to say the Romans, who cared more about who was doing the penetrating. Homophobia appears to be more of an arbitrary trait that some cultures may pick up, to varying degrees, due to a variety of factors.

      If everyone was heterosexual, I think we'd be even more overly populated on this earth than we already are to be honest....seems like nature's way of keeping the balance if you ask me...

      I don't think so, because the ratio seems to be stable regardless of population size, which isn't true of other population control adaptations. From everything I've seen, the "indifferent mutations" explanation seems to be the most probable, biologically speaking.

      As for Freud, well if a lot of his theories weren't just out there to start with then I'd imagine people would have heeded him more...

      He was very well respected within the early psychology community, seeing as he kind of jumpstarted the whole thing. In fact, it appears to have been mainly other psychoanalysts who didn't accept Freud's research in that area. While he initially researched a way to "cure" homosexuality, when his methods didn't work, he concluded it wasn't a pathology. Really, I think it was a problem that was bound to happen anyway, originating in ideas that predated Freud.

      Psychology arose out of the field of medicine, & at the time, the first major book studying sexuality on a medical basis concluded that homosexuality was a "perversion," probably caused by masturbation, because they blamed everything on masturbation back then. This WAS near the end of the Victorian era, & those ideas carried over into Freud's time. Behaviorism arose as a reaction againgst psychoanalysis, & though the Behaviorists don't seem to have directly involved themselves on the subject much, I can't imagine their blank slate doctrine helped. I mean, these were people who believed that you could alter anyone's characteristics through operant conditioning, whether that be gender identity, occupation, interests, really anything. That could only be considered fuel to the people who felt homosexuality was a choice that needed to be treated once these ideas started gaining control over the field.

      These ideas seem to have persisted until the 1950's, when Alfred Kinsey started shitting on everything middle America thought it knew about sexuality. Then of course there were the countercultural movements of the 60's & 70's, & the increased application of critical theory to science & how it had often been shaped by politics, & here we are today. Where WW2* era psychological theories are now mainly the domain of religious fundamentalists who think psychology is wrong about everything except that.

      • =Speaking of, apparently Germany had a pretty thriving gay community, before the Nazis got into power & started pumping out propaganda, all while burning pioneering research on the subject, which I think is another good example of the arbitrary winds of social change. Because Hitler got into power, beliefs about sexuality were quite literally set back by decades, in a way that probably would've been averted if he hadn't.
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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      If someone is straight or not.

      Oh, now that I really don't know....why do you ask?

      Wait, are we still talking about fear, or are we now talking about malicious prejudice? The term "phobia" can mean both.

      Both really.

      I really, really do not think most people are actually all that afraid of gay people. In fact, they tend to bristle at the assertion. I'm sure there's some abstract fear underlying their actions, but it seems more driven by disgust or resentment. And at the top of the pyramid, I really think a lot of the people promoting it are amoral & out for their own self-interest. I don't for a second believe that people like the Duggars or the Phelpses don't know that they're lying, they just don't care.

      True, but I think "fear" can exist in many forms and it definitely can breed both resentment and/or disgust.

      I don't think so, because the ratio seems to be stable regardless of population size, which isn't true of other population control adaptations. From everything I've seen, the "indifferent mutations" explanation seems to be the most probable, biologically speaking.

      True, but hasn't same sex attraction existed throughout most of history even before the term "homosexuality" was coined? I would imagine it having some sort of purpose in nature and all...I don't know...

      He was very well respected within the early psychology community, seeing as he kind of jumpstarted the whole thing. In fact, it appears to have been mainly other psychoanalysts who didn't accept Freud's research in that area. While he initially researched a way to "cure" homosexuality, when his methods didn't work, he concluded it wasn't a pathology. Really, I think it was a problem that was bound to happen anyway, originating in ideas that predated Freud.

      Psychology arose out of the field of medicine, & at the time, the first major book studying sexuality on a medical basis concluded that homosexuality was a "perversion," probably caused by masturbation, because they blamed everything on masturbation back then. This WAS near the end of the Victorian era, & those ideas carried over into Freud's time. Behaviorism arose as a reaction againgst psychoanalysis, & though the Behaviorists don't seem to have directly involved themselves on the subject much, I can't imagine their blank slate doctrine helped. I mean, these were people who believed that you could alter anyone's characteristics through operant conditioning, whether that be gender identity, occupation, interests, really anything. That could only be considered fuel to the people who felt homosexuality was a choice that needed to be treated once these ideas started gaining control over the field.

      These ideas seem to have persisted until the 1950's, when Alfred Kinsey started shitting on everything middle America thought it knew about sexuality. Then of course there were the countercultural movements of the 60's & 70's, & the increased application of critical theory to science & how it had often been shaped by politics, & here we are today. Where WW2* era psychological theories are now mainly the domain of religious fundamentalists who think psychology is wrong about everything except that.

      • =Speaking of, apparently Germany had a pretty thriving gay community, before the Nazis got into power & started pumping out propaganda, all while burning pioneering research on the subject, which I think is another good example of the arbitrary winds of social change. Because Hitler got into power, beliefs about sexuality were quite literally set back by decades, in a way that probably would've been averted if he hadn't.

      Oh believe me, I studied enough of Sigmund Freud for one life time (seriously, being a psychology major I couldn't go one damn semester without hearing his name...). Well thought out granted, but I always thought the guy was a bit too obsessed with the human libido with all that (his Psychosexual Development stages)....apparently it was a critique leveled at him during his day as well really...

      B.F. Skinner (another guy I got tired of studying) was the one who coined the term "Operant Conditioning"....geez man don't take me back to school...

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    • Oh, now that I really don't know....why do you ask?

      How would you know whom to fear?

      Both really.

      I think you're probably a lot more likely to run into someone who's afraid of straight people, rather than who actively hates them.

      True, but I think "fear" can exist in many forms and it definitely can breed both resentment and/or disgust.

      Most I'd be willing to say is that I'd expect it to be common in people who aren't happy with their own lives & looking for someone to blame.

      True, but hasn't same sex attraction existed throughout most of history even before the term "homosexuality" was coined? I would imagine it having some sort of purpose in nature and all...I don't know...

      I think you should look at it like eye color. It doesn't really matter what color your irises are, it's just a thing that happens.

      Oh believe me, I studied enough of Sigmund Freud for one life time (seriously, being a psychology major I couldn't go one damn semester without hearing his name...).

      We're twinsies! Yeah, I'm not too hard on the guy because they really didn't know shit about how the mind worked (also all that coke), but I agree that he was wrong a lot & projected his weird sexual hang ups on everyone else.

      B.F. Skinner (another guy I got tired of studying) was the one who coined the term "Operant Conditioning"....geez man don't take me back to school...

      Can't help it, I took the subject because I really enjoy science, & if I don't use it, I'll lose it.

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    • I think you're probably a lot more likely to run into someone who's afraid of straight people, rather than who actively hates them.

      I agree but fear can definitely beget hatred as well if it's strong enough...

      Most I'd be willing to say is that I'd expect it to be common in people who aren't happy with their own lives & looking for someone to blame.

      Truer words have never been spoken. It could very well be a combination of what you said and the unhappy people projecting their own insecurities and self-loathing on others to feel better about themselves...

      I think you should look at it like eye color. It doesn't really matter what color your irises are, it's just a thing that happens.

      I'm not ruling that theory out, but I just find it hard to accept that "God' would condemn a person for homosexuality when it's more or less just as uncontrollable as a person's skin or eye color and it's something that's been a part of nature for ages. And yet, so many people who believe seem to abide by this notion...and this is coming from someone who does believe in the existence of a higher power and all...it's just something that bugs me really...

      We're twinsies! Yeah, I'm not too hard on the guy because they really didn't know shit about how the mind worked (also all that coke), but I agree that he was wrong a lot & projected his weird sexual hang ups on everyone else.

      Psych majors unite!

      Can't help it, I took the subject because I really enjoy science, & if I don't use it, I'll lose it.

      I took psychology mainly because I was always rather fascinated with how complex the human mind can really be and just how much it can differ from person to person. I've also liked the idea of how learning about and helping someone psychologically can tell a person a lot about themselves really (you know, we're all connected and everything). I'm also a history nerd so I also liked studying how all the theories evolved over the years.

      As for losing something you don't use, I get that. Sadly I've lost a lot of my Spanish (English being my first language). I took four years of that back in high school and while I can still more or less understand the gist of what someone is saying to me in Spanish, I can't speak it back to them like I once could because I haven't used it much in almost a decade.

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    • I agree but fear can definitely beget hatred as well if it's strong enough...

      I guess, I'm just having a hard time seeing it. If I'm really afraid of something, I don't really wanna piss it off.

      I'm not ruling that theory out, but I just find it hard to accept that "God' would condemn a person for homosexuality when it's more or less just as uncontrollable as a person's skin or eye color and it's something that's been a part of nature for ages. And yet, so many people who believe seem to abide by this notion...and this is coming from someone who does believe in the existence of a higher power and all...it's just something that bugs me really...

      Most of them either cling to the belief that "homosexuality/behavior is a choice/at least for humans." Also, considering what genetic disorders exist, if a deity also exists, I don't see why that would give it any moral pause. It's already a being willing to horribly, slowly kill an arbitrary portion of children because of the way it designed the system that creates them. In fact, I'm not a child, but at any given point, you have absolutely no idea if I'm even still alive.

      Maybe, by the time you read this, I've just randomly dropped dead from an undiagnosed brain aneurysm that burst. Or I went to check the mail & some drunk driver ran headlong into me. Or I forgot to turn off the stove & the entire house burned down while I choked on the smoke in my sleep. The universe is chaos, we're all fragile sacks of meat hurtling through the void until the inevitable end, whether that be in the frozen darkness of the end of the cosmos, the furnace of the exploding sun, or because we didn't even make it that far.

      Existentialism aside, if there is a "higher power," every religion I've seen is obviously not it, & I find it doubtful that it chose only to speak to some random tribe in the Amazon. Just reading the Bible, it's incredibly obvious that it's no "word of god." Yahweh doesn't know things he should if he's omniscient, the lore blatantly changes in response to cultural changes, & at one point he breaks a guy's dick to win a wrestling match. No, really.

      The fact that Christianity & Islam are offshoots of Judaism, & all 3 religions' histories, explain why it covers so much of the planet, but there are still plenty of places where it's not the dominant view. Buddhism & Hinduism don't really have the same moral system at all.

      Psych majors unite!

      To complain about how we're not using our degrees!

      I took psychology mainly because I was always rather fascinated with how complex the human mind can really be and just how much it can differ from person to person. I've also liked the idea of how learning about and helping someone psychologically can tell a person a lot about themselves really (you know, we're all connected and everything). I'm also a history nerd so I also liked studying how all the theories evolved over the years.

      I nearly flunked out of trigonometry.

      As for losing something you don't use, I get that. Sadly I've lost a lot of my Spanish (English being my first language). I took four years of that back in high school and while I can still more or less understand the gist of what someone is saying to me in Spanish, I can't speak it back to them like I once could because I haven't used it much in almost a decade.

      I took 5 years of French (4 if we count the fact that 1 of those years was more focused on the history than the language, which was kinda weird), & now I couldn't even tell you how to ask where the bathroom is. But I was never that good at it to begin with, & always really struggled to retain the information, even when I was still taking it.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Oh I was aware of what you meant. I was just lamenting the fact that I'll never unsee a lot of tumblr vitriol and homophobic crap from the TLoK finale days....Try as I might...

      I know that feel.

      Yeah....don't get me wrong I love Korrasami and I'm happy with that conclusion anything was better than ending the show with Makorra but I was directly invested in Borra long before I was with Korrasami. I will forever maintain that Borra would have made far more sense in the first half of the show if not a slow burnt relationship from start to finish with them. But to be fair, Makorra might have worked had they not focused so much on emphasizing the drama surrounding the relationship (love triangle, outside disagreements and conflicts, etc) and worked on actually making Makorra a convincing romance....

      Korra and Bolin played off of one another well and seemed to become actual friends quickly; hell, his character design even harmonized better with hers than Mako's did.  Korrasami wasn't on my radar until fairly late in the game; I wouldn't have thought that they could actually get away with it.

      I admit to having a soft spot for fanfiction. Call it a guilty pleasure I suppose. Though it's only for a select few fandoms like Final Fantasy, The Legend of Dragoon, ATLA/TLoK, Fairy Tail and a few other games and shows and that's about it.

      Same here; I read it and even write it, but I probably spend nearly as much time snarking anything that hurts my head (like Maggie's horrible pony crossover garbage, or that Korvira thing with the Riverworlding, or this follow-up fic with a dual-bending antagonist, or...I could go on).  But I'm following Runaway, Subduction, Breaking the Wheel, and quite a few others; and I highly recommend March of Progress.  (All on Ao3, for the record.)

      (And oh, hey; Fairy Tail!  Although I'm only just starting on Season 2 as of now.)

      I still can't place Lunastar (I know she sounds familiar and I'm sure I've read some of her nonsense in the past) but I do remember Maggie and her nonsense clearly too...Foxie just comes to mind first because if I recall, she was the only one who went to Bryke directly with her bullshit...

      You're right; I don't recall anyone else going directly to Bryke, much less making a point of heckling Bryan about how they felt slighted by his alleged focus on Korrasami.

      And, now that I think of it: Lunastar was mainly on dA.  She was that one kook who kept going off about how she hated "gay stuff" (but heaven forbid anyone call her a homophobe/biphobe, because that's really rude), hated Asami for a bunch of bogus reasons (she wrote at least one skull-hurtingly bad modern-AU fanfic casting Asami as the evil alpha-bitch who was getting in the way of Makorra; don't worry, the link is to a snark blog), rabidly hated the idea of Korra and Asami being even so much as friends, and fawned over Mako to a degree comparable to this

      Needless to say, she threw a massive temper tantrum when she didn't get what she wanted (read: the wedding at the end being Korra's, and to Mako) out of the finale.  She was ranting, nonstop, for weeks about how Korrasami wasn't really canon (well after it was confirmed, no less); how it made her "sick" that Korra's last scene was with Asami; about how Mako was the real hero of the day, had been slighted in Korra's favor, was entitled to her, and so on; and about how she was suffering literal negative effects on her mental and physical health from not getting what she wanted.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      And at the top of the pyramid, I really think a lot of the people promoting it are amoral & out for their own self-interest. I don't for a second believe that people like the Duggars or the Phelpses don't know that they're lying, they just don't care.

      Yeah...no way are the Duggars just "ignorant," as a certain percentage of people seem to believe.  Have you heard some of the horrific crap that surfaced regarding their scumbag of a son?  (Suffice to say that they all but outright blamed his sisters for his actions.)  I'm not sure if I'd call them mercenary, desperate for attention at all costs, or some combination of both of the above; at any rate, it's certainly nothing benign.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I guess, I'm just having a hard time seeing it. If I'm really afraid of something, I don't really wanna piss it off.

      Indeed.  Unless you think you've got a fighting chance against whatever's got you spooked, you're not going to be inclined to pick a fight with it.  And if you're not in a position of power relative to it, that's unlikely.

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    • his character design even harmonized better with hers than Mako's did.

      Eh?

      Yeah...no way are the Duggars just "ignorant," as a certain percentage of people seem to believe. Have you heard some of the horrific crap that surfaced regarding their scumbag of a son?

      In an earlier version of that post, I was going to say, "They know the ones raping children are in their own family," but I changed it to include the Phelpses. I think the creepy "quiverfull" cult definitely plays a part.

      Indeed. Unless you think you've got a fighting chance against whatever's got you spooked, you're not going to be inclined to pick a fight with it. And if you're not in a position of power relative to it, that's unlikely.

      True. My standing strategy for if I ever get attacked by a bear is to stab it in the eye & hope for the best.

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    • Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      Most of them either cling to the belief that "homosexuality/behavior is a choice/at least for humans." Also, considering what genetic disorders exist, if a deity also exists, I don't see why that would give it any moral pause. It's already a being willing to horribly, slowly kill an arbitrary portion of children because of the way it designed the system that creates them. In fact, I'm not a child, but at any given point, you have absolutely no idea if I'm even still alive.

      Maybe, by the time you read this, I've just randomly dropped dead from an undiagnosed brain aneurysm that burst. Or I went to check the mail & some drunk driver ran headlong into me. Or I forgot to turn off the stove & the entire house burned down while I choked on the smoke in my sleep. The universe is chaos, we're all fragile sacks of meat hurtling through the void until the inevitable end, whether that be in the frozen darkness of the end of the cosmos, the furnace of the exploding sun, or because we didn't even make it that far.

      Existentialism aside, if there is a "higher power," every religion I've seen is obviously not it, & I find it doubtful that it chose only to speak to some random tribe in the Amazon. Just reading the Bible, it's incredibly obvious that it's no "word of god." Yahweh doesn't know things he should if he's omniscient, the lore blatantly changes in response to cultural changes, & at one point he breaks a guy's dick to win a wrestling match. No, really.

      The fact that Christianity & Islam are offshoots of Judaism, & all 3 religions' histories, explain why it covers so much of the planet, but there are still plenty of places where it's not the dominant view. Buddhism & Hinduism don't really have the same moral system at all.

      Oh yeah definitely. When I say I believe in the existence of a higher power or force of some sort, I don't necessarily mean the "God" of Christianity or anything. The universe is far bigger than you or I. Who am I really to say a "God" exists or not. I don't really adhere to any given religion, but I do believe in the existence of something far greater than myself. I just call it a "God" to give a name to whatever it is. It's hard for me to put it into words to be honest...There's bits and pieces of every theology that I believe but I don't follow just one specific one. To be honest, my beliefs align most with Buddhism, Hinduism, and a bit of Daoism/Taoism but I wouldn't consider myself a member of any.

      And I agree that the Bible contradicts itself at every turn. I do believe that there could have been a "Word of God" (again who am I to say for certain? At the end of the day, all we have are theories) but whatever the message entailed has been lost. The Bible has been translated and rewritten thousands of times across thousands of years....

      To complain about how we're not using our degrees!

      Yep!

      I nearly flunked out of trigonometry.

      Man fuck Math...Hell, algebra was greek to me for a long time (who the hell thought it was a good idea to start mixing numbers and letters together...?)...nearly flunked out of that in high school (though I'm proud to say that I did a lot better in college when I had to take College Algebra. Got a high "B" though I still had to claw my way to it). I think my mother said it best back then "How the hell do you get 6 A's and and one "D"...? Make no mistake I had to work my ass off for some of those A's (wasn't the best in chemistry and physics either) but I've always been good in art, literature, music and history courses...though anything that wasn't just basic math like addition, subtraction, time tables and so on I sucked at back then...algebra, geometry, calculus, etc...didn't matter...

      I took 5 years of French (4 if we count the fact that 1 of those years was more focused on the history than the language, which was kinda weird), & now I couldn't even tell you how to ask where the bathroom is. But I was never that good at it to begin with, & always really struggled to retain the information, even when I was still taking it.

      Huh...I don't think we had one specific year dedicated to the history of the languages themselves....for my high school it was all pretty integrated along with learning to read, write and speak them. My Spanish teacher in my 4th year would give you a failing grade for the day if you said anything in English while in her class....that was some bullshit, but it got me to speak it pretty fluently back then. If she ever caught wind of how much of it I've lost over the years....yeah it wouldn't be pretty...

      Deist Zealot Wrote:
      Korra and Bolin played off of one another well and seemed to become actual friends quickly; hell, his character design even harmonized better with hers than Mako's did. Korrasami wasn't on my radar until fairly late in the game; I wouldn't have thought that they could actually get away with it.

      I thought I was the only one who noticed that! The cute button noses, the musculature they both had, the wide innocent eyes, and so on. I think Bolin said it best "Korra and I would be pefect for each other! She's strong! I'm strong! She's fun! I'm fun! She's beautiful....I'm gorgeous!" Oh like I said...the ship that got lost at sea...

      Same here; I read it and even write it, but I probably spend nearly as much time snarking anything that hurts my head (like Maggie's horrible pony crossover garbage, or that Korvira thing with the Riverworlding, or this follow-up fic with a dual-bending antagonist, or...I could go on). But I'm following Runaway, Subduction, Breaking the Wheel, and quite a few others; and I highly recommend March of Progress. (All on Ao3, for the record.) (And oh, hey; Fairy Tail! Although I'm only just starting on Season 2 as of now.)

      Korvira Riverworlding....? Okay, I'm morbidly curious again...why do I do this to myself? Dare I ask what that's all about? I do have a dA account two so I thought she sounded familiar. I'm rarely on it but I do recall that nonsense too...

      And I've seen every episode of Fairy Tail that's out now. If I recall, season 2 is when Wendy Marvell is introduced as a character as well as the Oracion Seis/Nirvana arc. Cool stuff really. The entire show has it's ups and downs (the power of friendship speeches can get a bit tiresome even if justified in universe with how magic works) but those action and fighting scenes though!

      Indeed. Unless you think you've got a fighting chance against whatever's got you spooked, you're not going to be inclined to pick a fight with it. And if you're not in a position of power relative to it, that's unlikely.

      I was really channelling Yoda with all of that to be honest. "Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." That and the whole people tend to fear things they don't understand or are different and that's how a lot of hatred and resentment is bred...not literal physical threats like lions and tigers and bears (Oh my!) I'm not going to pick a fight with either one if I can help it).

      Though to get back to TLoK a bit here, I would say that an example would be the entire Equalist movement and how Amon was able to organize the movement by playing on the Nonbenders' frustrations and with his own charisma. Nonbenders spent years living in fear of benders and feeling powerless to do anything. That fear eventually gave rise to anger (all of the Equalist rallies, technology specifically designed to incapacitate benders, a chance to "even the playing field"), then led to hatred (attacking every bender just for being benders and so on) and then it eventually led to suffering (all of Republic City at war with one another) and so on...

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    • Oh yeah definitely. When I say I believe in the existence of a higher power or force of some sort, I don't necessarily mean the "God" of Christianity or anything.

      I mention it because it is mostly--though not exclusively--the Abrahamic faiths that are the most virulently homophobic. So, knowing that these are myths goes a long way toward dispensing the notion that there's any sign of a deity that hates gay people specifically. Specifically.

      The universe is far bigger than you or I. Who am I really to say a "God" exists or not.

      The problem I always have with this line of reasoning is that it can be done with almost anything. Who's to say that magic doesn't exist? Or unicorns? Or good Christian rock?* I really can't, but it doesn't seem necessary or even plausible within the known laws of science, & that's practically the same thing. As far as can be discerned, the universe is simply energy doing stuff, & when it all stops doing stuff, well that'd be that frozen darkness I was talking about earlier.

      • =I once unironically enjoyed a Christian rock song, because I am apparently a youth pastor struggling to avoid admitting that I'm getting old.
      At the end of the day, all we have are theories) but whatever the message entailed has been lost. The Bible has been translated and rewritten thousands of times across thousands of years....

      The problem I have with this is, how can you lose the Word of God? Even if the universe was created by a being that is not truly omniscient, to our perspective, it might as well be. It would be a trivial feat to create a message that could simply never be altered or degraded. There's the Futurama Argument, but it's hard to conceive of any reason why obfuscation would be preferred. That makes sense for humans, who have finite resources, & need to act to keep others from undermining our plans, but not for an entity of arguably limitless power.

      The numerous problems with omnipotence, or even de facto omnipotence, are why I've always said that polytheism makes more sense, from an internal consistency standpoint. Polytheistic religions dispense with this problem by simply saying that there are many deities with competing interests that can & frequently do undermine each other. But, in many other ways, that just multiplies the problems. There is the idea of a mindless supernatural element, like a reincarnation cycle, but at that point it just sounds like atheism but with extra steps.

      Man fuck Math...Hell, Algebra was greek to me for a long time (who the hell thought it was a good idea to start mixing numbers and letters together...?)...nearly flunked out of that in high school

      I had a terrible time with nearly all forms of math. Took an inordinate amount of time to learn the multiplication tables, numerous problems throughout all algebra courses, somehow got a D in geometry at one point, was a goddamn wizard with long division for some incomprehensible reason but that didn't apply to normal division. Oh, & once when I didn't know the answer to a question, I just drew a picture of Godzilla destroying Tokyo that was probably kinda racist, in hindsight.

      Huh...I don't think we had one specific year dedicated to the history of the languages themselves....for my high school it was all pretty integrated along with learning to read, write and speak it.

      No, no, you misunderstand. In the 4th year of French, we randomly took a break from the language to do the history of France itself. It wasn't even necessary, or for that matter encouraged, to answer the questions in French. That was my best year, by a significant margin. I have absolutely no idea why it was organized that way.

      Speaking of nonsensical course organization, in my senior year of health class there was this big, convoluted economics project without many clear instructions where you had to create like a 30 year budget. I eventually stopped working on it entirely, because it became mathematically impossible not to fail it, & I think it's safe to say I didn't learn shit from it, ultimately earning a D in the whole course. In the same year, I took anatomy, & got high marks in it despite sleeping through most of it (I couldn't sleep at night, nor get a hold of sleeping pills until I was in college & realized that I was an adult & could shove whatever I wanted down my throat now & my parents could just deal with it). The teacher of both courses didn't understand this, but I didn't think it was all that mysterious, economics has fuck all to do with health & I'd literally never taken a class on it before.

      Might've also helped if she'd answer simple questions like, "It says to write a cover letter without using personal pronouns, how do I even do that?" Long after I'd failed that part, I mentioned it off-hand to my philosophy/English teacher at the time, who said I was probably supposed to use the pronoun "one," which I hadn't even known was a thing at the time. Shit, now I'm having flashbacks.

      My Spanish teacher in my 4th year would give you a failing grade for the day if you said anything in English while in her class....that was some bullshit, but it got me to speak it pretty fluently back then. If she ever caught wind of how much of it I've lost over the years....yeah it wouldn't be pretty...

      The only reason I stuck with the class is because I didn't have to do that shit. To be honest, I had few real expectations of becoming fluent. Some argue that's the reason why I never got good at it, but I don't see what difference good vibes would've made if 4 years didn't make a dent. Yet with the exception of French & math, I tended to achieve B's & A's with relatively little effort. I refuse to count that nonsensical "health" project. Then again, I guess I only really made a breakthrough in learning how to type once I decided I actually wanted to.

      Korvira Riverworlding....? Okay, I'm morbidly curious again...why do I do this to myself? Dare I ask what that's all about? I do have a dA account two so I thought she sounded familiar. I'm rarely on it but I do recall that nonsense too...

      She explained it before, but I forgot what it means.

      And I've seen every episode of Fairy Tail that's out now. If I recall, season 2 is when Wendy Marvell is introduced as a character as well as the Oracion Seis/Nirvana arc. Cool stuff really. The entire show has it's ups and downs (the power of friendship speeches can get a bit tiresome even if justified in universe with how magic works) but those action and fighting scenes though!

      Thought about watching it once, saw a bunch of "fanservice" shit, decided nobody has time for that.

      I was really channelling Yoda with all of that to be honest. "Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

      Because I live to destroy everything I touch, I'm going to point out that Cracked has a great bit about how you can reshuffle the sentences around in any combination, & it makes the same amount of sense.

      Though to get back to TLoK a bit here, I would say that an example would be the entire Equalist movement and how Amon was able to organize the movement by playing on the Nonbenders' frustrations.

      I can see it, though I think it'd be hard to similarly organize benders around fear of nonbenders.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:I mention it because it is mostly--though not exclusively--the Abrahamic faiths that are the most virulently homophobic. So, knowing that these are myths goes a long way toward dispensing the notion that there's any sign of a deity that hates gay people specifically. Specifically.

      More or less.

      The problem I always have with this line of reasoning is that it can be done with almost anything. Who's to say that magic doesn't exist? Or unicorns? Or good Christian rock?* I really can't, but it doesn't seem necessary or even plausible within the known laws of science, & that's practically the same thing. As far as can be discerned, the universe is simply energy doing stuff, & when it all stops doing stuff, well that'd be that frozen darkness I was talking about earlier.
      • =I once unironically enjoyed a Christian rock song, because I am apparently a youth pastor struggling to avoid admitting that I'm getting old.

      True, but my problem with the "laws of science" is that even they have their limits. The laws tell us how things happen in our world with processes, laws, logic and so on but not necessarily why they do. Who or what force in the universe decided to ultimately put all of those laws into practice....like I said, it's something I can't really express that well on a forum.

      The problem I have with this is, how can you lose the Word of God? Even if the universe was created by a being that is not truly omniscient, to our perspective, it might as well be. It would be a trivial feat to create a message that could simply never be altered or degraded. There's the Futurama Argument, but it's hard to conceive of any reason why obfuscation would be preferred. That makes sense for humans, who have finite resources, & need to act to keep others from undermining our plans, but not for an entity of arguably limitless power. The numerous problems with omnipotence, or even de facto omnipotence, are why I've always said that polytheism makes more sense, from an internal consistency standpoint. Polytheistic religions dispense with this problem by simply saying that there are many deities with competing interests that can & frequently do undermine each other. But, in many other ways, that just multiplies the problems. There is the idea of a mindless supernatural element, like a reincarnation cycle, but at that point it just sounds like atheism but with extra steps.

      The same way people lose a lot across the ages: history being written by the winners. If such a "Word" (for want of a better expression) existed, I seriously doubt the message is still intact in the copies of the Bible people can buy in stores. That and humans being fallible creatures in general trying to frame a omnipotent/omnipresent being with mortal words. I've always thought it a bit arrogant to believe that a single book can shape any maker's will or word and that humans can somehow express that. It's something beyond us really....I know I'm probably not making a lot of sense and this is really a topic that other people far more qualified than I could probably phrase better than me...like I said words...

      I had a terrible time with nearly all forms of math. Took an inordinate amount of time to learn the multiplication tables, numerous problems throughout all algebra courses, somehow got a D in geometry at one point, was a goddamn wizard with long division for some incomprehensible reason but that didn't apply to normal division. Oh, & once when I didn't know the answer to a question, I just drew a picture of Godzilla destroying Tokyo that was probably kinda racist, in hindsight.

      Ugh long division was terrible....and lol at the Godzilla thing. Damn that's funny. Terrible but funny.

      No, no, you misunderstand. In the 4th year of French, we randomly took a break from the language to do the history of France itself. It wasn't even necessary, or for that matter encouraged, to answer the questions in French. That was my best year, by a significant margin. I have absolutely no idea why it was organized that way.

      Ah, that makes more sense to me. Still a bit weird though like you said.

      Speaking of nonsensical course organization, in my senior year of health class there was this big, convoluted economics project without many clear instructions where you had to create like a 30 year budget. I eventually stopped working on it entirely, because it became mathematically impossible not to fail it, & I think it's safe to say I didn't learn shit from it, ultimately earning a D in the whole course. In the same year, I took anatomy, & got high marks in it despite sleeping through most of it (I couldn't sleep at night, nor get a hold of sleeping pills until I was in college & realized that I was an adult & could shove whatever I wanted down my throat now & my parents could just deal with it). The teacher of both courses didn't understand this, but I didn't think it was all that mysterious, economics has fuck all to do with health & I'd literally never taken a class on it before. Might've also helped if she'd answer simple questions like, "It says to write a cover letter without using personal pronouns, how do I even do that?" Long after I'd failed that part, I mentioned it off-hand to my philosophy/English teacher at the time, who said I was probably supposed to use the pronoun "one," which I hadn't even known was a thing at the time. Shit, now I'm having flashbacks.

      Ugh...don't you just hate it when teachers aren't clear in their instructions and yet somehow blame you for "not getting it" and try to fail you? Can't say I miss my high school days either (seriously, I had a very accurate countdown back then down to the very seconds on how soon I was due to graduate as early as 10th grade. No joke. HATED high school). College was better. More control over my schedule and what courses I wanted to take after the general stuff, not confined to one place like a prisoner all damn day (unless I had an unlucky semester where that happened), easier to get away from folks I didn't like (I commuted to and from) etc. Fun fact: The 08 part of my username was when I graduated high school....happiest fuckin' year of my life you have no idea...

      The only reason I stuck with the class is because I didn't have to do that shit. To be honest, I had few real expectations of becoming fluent. Some argue that's the reason why I never got good at it, but I don't see what difference good vibes would've made if 4 years didn't make a dent. Yet with the exception of French & math, I tended to achieve B's & A's with relatively little effort. I refuse to count that nonsensical "health" project. Then again, I guess I only really made a breakthrough in learning how to type once I decided I actually wanted to.

      Yeah speaking it in class non stop for 50 minutes a day while trying to catch yourself from speaking English wasn't fun...but I did enjoy learning more about the language and the culture and all of that. In my school we were only required to take 2 years of either French or Spanish. So yeah maybe I enjoyed punishing myself on some level, especially that fourth year lol...

      She explained it before, but I forgot what it means.

      Yeah I remember her explaining it at one point but I don't remember what she was referring to either....maybe that's a good thing?

      Thought about watching it once, saw a bunch of "fanservice" shit, decided nobody has time for that.

      There's more to the show than that lol. One thing I do appreciate about Hiro Mashima is that he tried to cater to all people with his fanservice instead of just straight males and lesbians. Straight females and gay guys watch anime too! Either way, it's not all that evasive and I can only think of like 3 moments in the entire 270+ episode show where he went overboard with it. Fairy Tail is basically One Piece meets Rave Master with of course it's own idea. If you're a fan of either you'd probably like it.

      I can see it, though I think it'd be hard to similarly organize benders around fear of nonbenders.

      It's not so hard for me to picture that (in a scenario where the Avatar wasn't around to stop Amon) that eventually the benders would retaliate against the nonbenders and so on. The cycle of revenge and violence and all of that...

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    • True, but my problem with the "laws of science" is that even they have their limits. The laws tell us how things happen in our world with processes, laws, logic and so on but not necessarily why they do. Who or what force in the universe decided to ultimately put all of those laws into practice....like I said, it's something I can't really express that well on a forum.

      That assumes there's something "beyond" the laws of physics, rather than that the reason those are the limits is because there is no philosophical reason or lawgiver, there are just things that exist because the conditions of the universe make it possible for them to exist.

      The same way people lose a lot across the ages: history being written by the winners. If such a "Word" (for want of a better expression) existed, I seriously doubt the message is still intact in the copies of the Bible people can buy in stores.

      But there's no reason it should be the same, since it's not a book written by humans, but by the thing which set the very laws of physics. It can literally make it as impossible to edit its message as it would be to create mass from nothing. And we'd know that there is at least something special, even superhuman about this, because it would behave in a way that no other words do.

      Ugh...don't you just hate it when teachers aren't clear in their instructions and yet somehow blame you for "not getting it" and try to fail you?

      Yeah, & except for the countdown, that sounds a lot like my sentiments.

      In my school we were only required to take 2 years of either French or Spanish. So yeah maybe I enjoyed punishing myself on some level, especially that fourth year lol...

      Same here, but I needed something to fill the time with, & French class was fun even though I sucked at it.

      Yeah I remember her explaining it at one point but I don't remember what she was referring to either....maybe that's a good thing?

      Probably, but that won't stop me from inquiring anyway.

      Fairy Tail is basically One Piece meets Rave Master. If you're a fan of either you'd probably like it.

      I'm not.

      It's not so hard for me to picture that (in a scenario where the Avatar wasn't around to stop Amon) that eventually the benders would retaliate against the nonbenders and so on. The cycle of revenge and violence and all of that...

      I mean without radically changing the context.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      That assumes there's something "beyond" the laws of physics, rather than that the reason those are the limits is because there is no philosophical reason or lawgiver, there are just things that exist because the conditions of the universe make it possible for them to exist.

      Maybe but the simple fact that no one can approve that assumption true or false is my entire point. Science alone can't give us those particular answers.

      But there's no reason it should be the same, since it's not a book written by humans, but by the thing which set the very laws of physics. It can literally make it as impossible to edit its message as it would be to create mass from nothing. And we'd know that there is at least something special, even superhuman about this, because it would behave in a way that no other words do.

      I mean the Bible as it stands now is something that's been altered by human hands so I'm not sure how close to the original "word" (again if such a thing exists. I'm not one to rule anything out (in general I mean) even if I put stock more in other theories when it comes to religion and faith) the Bible is as it stands now. The way the Bible reads today contradicts itself at every turn...

      Yeah, & except for the countdown, that sounds a lot like my sentiments.

      Oh man that countdown was legit. I mean damn...I remember a lot of my classmates were all teary eyed at the prospect of us never seeing each other again and leaving high school....me? I was all like "Holla! I'm out!" Barely waited on my diploma. Started to just tell them to mail the damn thing to me...

      Same here, but I needed something to fill the time with, & French class was fun even though I sucked at it.

      Same here. Even though I wasn't happy with that "No English" rule in my fourth year, by that point I needed a 7th class to fill the time. I'd already given 3 years of my life to Spanish so it didn't make sense to stop at that point. That and aside from that rule, like I said, Spanish was fun to learn.

      Probably, but that won't stop me from inquiring anyway.

      Yeah that applies to me as well...

      I'm not.

      To be honest, I've only seen bits and pieces of One Piece but I remember enjoying Rave Master back in the day. Natsu and Lucy from Fairy Tail reminded me of Haru and Ellie from Rave Master (which was also written by Hiro Mashima) and I like seeing all the little references and nods to his first work reflected in Fairy Tail. Fairy Tail is a show that doesn't take itself too seriously and believe me, if fan service was the only thing it had going for it, I would not be watching it either. 

      I mean without radically changing the context.

      Gotcha...but to be honest even before Korra stopped Amon, most of the Council was already onboard to retaliating against him and the Equalist movement. Even so you're right, it still changes the context either way.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Eh?

      Holydragon2808 covered it:

      I thought I was the only one who noticed that! The cute button noses, the musculature they both had, the wide innocent eyes, and so on.

      While "aesthetically pleasing couple" is never one of my primary criteria, it's usually deliberate in animated works where characters have to be carefully designed.

      I think the creepy "quiverfull" cult definitely plays a part.

      Don't get me started on Quivvies.

      HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Korvira Riverworlding....? Okay, I'm morbidly curious again...why do I do this to myself? Dare I ask what that's all about?

      For some background: Riverworld is a s-f series from the '70s, of which a few television adaptations have been made.  One of the premises was that people were brought back from the dead at the physical age of no more than twenty-five.

      In the final arc of a Korvira longfic that I read (it was technically proficient, but nonetheless just plain bad), a dark spirit (literally Koh's bigger, uglier brother) brought back a bunch of dead characters (including some who would have still been alive if it weren't for the author...but we won't go into that) as what were basically Unsent under his control.  And they were all resurrected at a physical age of around twenty-five—hence, "Riverworlding."

      I do have a dA account two so I thought she sounded familiar. I'm rarely on it but I do recall that nonsense too...

      Here's her playing victim and admitting to being a raging bigot; here is some Asami hate for no reason; and here's her taking offense at Bopal, Kainora, and P'heer having the gall to be canon after Makorra sunk.  And if you "liked" that, her awful little blog has plenty more.  (Further warning for a hell of a lot of incoherent gushing about Makorra as if it were anything special.)

      There used to be more.  But she's a wimp and turned off comments on some of her garbage, so a lot of it has been lost.

      Also: she's another of those people who claims to just adore Mako, but interprets him as a far less sympathetic character than he actually is in canon.  Hate to break this to ya; Lunastar, but: no matter how much you hate Asami, Mako would never say that she "means nothing to" him; they're friends.  Deal with it.

      And I've seen every episode of Fairy Tail that's out now. If I recall, season 2 is when Wendy Marvell is introduced as a character as well as the Oracion Seis/Nirvana arc. Cool stuff really. The entire show has it's ups and downs (the power of friendship speeches can get a bit tiresome even if justified in universe with how magic works) but those action and fighting scenes though!

      Yeah, I'm on the Oración Seis arc.  It's one of these shows that comes off cheesy and silly, then turns around and surprises you.  (Although I still think Laxus is a huge douche.)

      Though to get back to TLoK a bit here, I would say that an example would be the entire Equalist movement and how Amon was able to organize the movement by playing on the Nonbenders' frustrations and with his own charisma. Nonbenders spent years living in fear of benders and feeling powerless to do anything. That fear eventually gave rise to anger (all of the Equalist rallies, technology specifically designed to incapacitate benders, a chance to "even the playing field"), then led to hatred (attacking every bender just for being benders and so on) and then it eventually led to suffering (all of Republic City at war with one another) and so on...

      That whole arc was...iffy.  Nonbenders were supposed to be marginalized (no matter what Foxie may say), and Amonatak was supposed to be taking advantage of a legitimate concern.  But yet, it ended up playing out more-or-less as one of those "superpowers as metaphor for marginalization" plots (which are kind of dubious to begin with).

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I can see it, though I think it'd be hard to similarly organize benders around fear of nonbenders.

      Tarrlok going McCarthy-lite on the Dragon Flats Borough; 'nuff said.

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    • Maybe but the simple fact that no one can approve that assumption true or false is my entire point. Science alone can't give us those particular answers.

      But that's not quite accurate. If something exists, it should be possible to test it with evidence. If it's impossible to do that with with something, & especially if there are other reasons to doubt its existence, then that would all point to it not existing. The mere fact that something can't be proven wrong does not lend it any credibility, if anything, it's actually rather damning.

      I mean the Bible as it stands now is something that's been altered by human hands so I'm not sure how close to the original "word" (again if such a thing exists. I'm not one to rule anything out (in general I mean) even if I put stock more in other theories when it comes to religion and faith) the Bible is as it stands now. The way the Bible reads today contradicts itself at every turn...

      I'm saying if there were such a thing as a Word of God, being incorruptible would be a pretty easy way to distinguish it. But we pretty much know the Bible is no such thing, nor even the Torah, because we have good evidence that it evolved out of even earlier religions.

      Barely waited on my diploma. Started to just tell them to mail the damn thing to me...

      I tried doing that, but my parents were difficult about it. Didn't attend college graduation because fuck that.

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    • Deist Zealot Wrote:
      While "aesthetically pleasing couple" is never one of my primary criteria, it's usually deliberate in animated works where characters have to be carefully designed.

      Indeed. To be honest, even though Mako was considered the "pretty boy" I always found Bolin to be more aesthetically pleasing. Don't get me wrong, Mako isn't ugly by any means but I found Bolin to be "gorgeous" from the start. I like guys who are built more like Bolin (stocky but not too muscular) so that could explain that.

      For some background: Riverworld is a s-f series from the '70s, of which a few television adaptations have been made.  One of the premises was that people were brought back from the dead at the physical age of no more than twenty-five. In the final arc of a Korvira longfic that I read (it was technically proficient, but nonetheless just plain bad), a dark spirit (literally Koh's bigger, uglier brother) brought back a bunch of dead characters (including some who would have still been alive if it weren't for the author...but we won't go into that) as what were basically Unsent under his control.  And they were all resurrected at a physical age of around twenty-five—hence, "Riverworlding."

      Huh..."interesting" is the only word I can find for all of that...never heard of Riverworlding until now. Will have to look into that later.

      Here's her playing victim and admitting to being a raging bigot; here is some Asami hate for no reason; and here's her taking offense at Bopal, Kainora, and P'heer having the gall to be canon after Makorra sunk.  And if you "liked" that, her awful little blog has plenty more.  (Further warning for a hell of a lot of incoherent gushing about Makorra as if it were anything special.)

      There used to be more.  But she's a wimp and turned off comments on some of her garbage, so a lot of it has been lost.

      Also: she's

      another of those people who claims to just adore Mako, but interprets him as a far less sympathetic character than he actually is in canon.  Hate to break this to ya; Lunastar, but: no matter how much you hate Asami, Mako would never say that she "means nothing to" him; they're friends.  Deal with it.

      Gotta go to work now, but when I get off tonight I'll look at all of those links and get back to you. But if Lunastar honestly believes that Mako would ever say anything like that to Asami...well I'll be entertained when I come home that's for sure...

      Yeah, I'm on the Oración Seis arc.  It's one of these shows that comes off cheesy and silly, then turns around and surprises you.  (Although I still think Laxus is a huge douche.)

      Yeah, but that will make his arc all the more epic when he returns. Won't spoil it for you but it should be obvious that the Thunder Palace arc isn't the last you'll see of him and he does lose a lot of his arrogant attitude in a way that really works. I found him to be a douche too, but I do admit to smiling a bit when the entire guild gave him that heartwarming send off with his hand sign and all ("It's a message! It means even if I can't see you I'm still looking your way!")

      That whole arc was...iffy.  Nonbenders were supposed to be marginalized (no matter what Foxie may say), and Amonatak was supposed to be taking advantage of a legitimate concern.  But yet, it ended up playing out more-or-less as one of those "superpowers as metaphor for marginalization" plots (which are kind of dubious to begin with).

      Oh yeah agreed. It was hardly perfect but I do think they got the message (at least in the beginning) across that Republic City was essentially ruled by benders (the Council, the gangs, even some of the better jobs like what we see Mako doing with his lightning in the beginning) and so on.

      Neo Bahamut Wrote
      But that's not quite accurate. If something exists, it should be possible to test it with evidence. If it's impossible to do that with with something, & especially if there are other reasons to doubt its existence, then that would all point to it not existing. The mere fact that something can't be proven wrong does not lend it any credibility, if anything, it's actually rather damning.

      Don't know if I agree with that because the very nature of "faith" is essentially the honest belief in something that may or not be able to be proven with tangible evidence. It's something more individualistic to me. Either you feel it or you don't. A lot of miraculous things happen in the world (whether by chance or divine intervention is a matter of debate) that can't be explained with science alone. To me scientific law is only half of the equation. It explains the how but not the why...

      I'm saying if there were such a thing as a Word of God, being incorruptible would be a pretty easy way to distinguish it. But we pretty much know the Bible is no such thing, nor even the Torah, because we have good evidence that it evolved out of even earlier religions.

      Now that I can agree with.

      I tried doing that, but my parents were difficult about it. Didn't attend college graduation because fuck that.

      Luckily they got to mine relatively quickly after the ceremony or else I would have just said fuck it. Though I would have imagine my mother back then would have been difficult about it too.

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    • Holydragon2808 covered it

      I did see that in between posts. I always thought Mako & Korra looked strange together for some reason.

      Here's her playing victim and admitting to being a raging bigot;

      Top comment spells it out even more bluntly. I wasn't aware there were people in the western hemisphere who still felt it fashionable to say "I don't support gay rights." Also, listening to them whine about their opinions is about the most tedious shit ever.

      here is some Asami hate for no reason;

      Well, that was entirely stable.

      and here's her taking offense at Bopal, Kainora, and P'heer having the gall to be canon after Makorra sunk.

      Sounds like heterophobia to me.

      Tarrlok going McCarthy-lite on the Dragon Flats Borough; 'nuff said.

      Actually, technically they were most afraid of Amon's power. Which turned out to be bending.

      Don't know if I agree with that because the very nature of "faith" is essentially the honest belief in something that may or not be able to be proven with tangible evidence. It's something more individualistic to me. Either you feel it or you don't. A lot of miraculous things happen in the world (whether by chance or divine intervention is a matter of debate) that can't be explained with science alone. To me scientific law is only half of the equation. It explains the how but not the why...

      That is exactly the problem with the doctrine of non-overlapping magisteria: It tends to venerate wishful thinking as being on par with science. Sure, it makes the caveat that it's as long as the thing "can't be explained" with science, but that tends to ignore if the question even makes sense, the fact that everything science has answered was once something it couldn't answer, & the fact that "faith" doesn't have any answers at all, merely collections of unverifiable & often mutually exclusive hunches.

      A lot of miraculous things happen in the world

      I've never heard of even a single event that justifies being called miraculous. There are rare events, hoaxes, fortunate events, impressive but nonetheless natural phenomena, events with unclear explanations, & those which probably didn't actually happen. If a light comes down from the sky right now & turns me into a solid mass of sodium chloride, then they have permission to make my epitaph "smote by a miracle."

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I did see that in between posts. I always thought Mako & Korra looked strange together for some reason.

      I don't know. I never really thought that Mako and Korra looked strange or bad together really. Just that Bolin and Korra made more sense and just looked better to me.

      Top comment spells it out even more bluntly. I wasn't aware there were people in the western hemisphere who still felt it fashionable to say "I don't support gay rights." Also, listening to them whine about their opinions is about the most tedious shit ever.

      I remember that nonsense now unfortunately (something else I won't ever forget)....couldn't even bother to read that first link again (she's just as bad as Foxie...)...Being a bigot and having the unmitigated gall to blatantly act like the victim at the same time...that's a whole new level of "what the actual fuck?!" to me...then she doesn't really have any reason to hate Asami other than shipping wars which is just stupid and immature (nevermind the fact that Makorra did a pretty good job of sinking itself with or without Asami if we're being honest)....wow...Then like Neo said the whole "I don't support gay rights" bit...classy, real classy...Don't even get me started on that nonsense about the other ships...

      That is exactly the problem with the doctrine of non-overlapping magisteria: It tends to venerate wishful thinking as being on par with science. Sure, it makes the caveat that it's as long as the thing "can't be explained" with science, but that tends to ignore if the question even makes sense, the fact that everything science has answered was once something it couldn't answer, & the fact that "faith" doesn't have any answers at all, merely collections of unverifiable & often mutually exclusive hunches. I've never heard of even a single event that justifies being called miraculous. There are rare events, hoaxes, fortunate events, impressive but nonetheless natural phenomena, events with unclear explanations, & those which probably didn't actually happen. If a light comes down from the sky right now & turns me into a solid mass of sodium chloride, then they have permission to make my epitaph "smote by a miracle."

      And at the end of the day I still don't see what point you're getting at (and this goes both ways with me as well). Neither one of us has truly proven the other right or wrong. Unless we can die and come back to settle the matter once and for all no one will ever truly know the answer (which has been the bulk of my entire point really). I pointed out the limitations of science while you pointed out the limitations of faith...

      And yet neither one of us is closer to knowing the truth or proving anything. I don't think its something man will ever truly have an answer for. No one really knows for certain. All we can do is speculate and just believe what makes the most sense to us individually. Either way, it was an interesting conversation though I don't think I expressed my beliefs as well as I could have had this been a face to face conversation lol.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Indeed. To be honest, even though Mako was considered the "pretty boy" I always found Bolin to be more aesthetically pleasing. Don't get me wrong, Mako isn't ugly by any means but I found Bolin to be "gorgeous" from the start. I like guys who are built more like Bolin (stocky but not too muscular) so that could explain that.

      What I think I said once was that both brothers are supposed to be attractive, but Mako is essentially a classic bishōnen while Bolin is cute and endearing.

      Huh..."interesting" is the only word I can find for all of that...never heard of Riverworlding until now. Will have to look into that later.

      Riverworld is a good series (if very '70s speculative-fiction).  I haven't seen either of the adaptations, have not heard particularly good things about them, and still kind of want to see them nonetheless. 

      Splicing that concept into the Avatarverse, however?  I won't say that it's completely out-of-place, if only on the grounds that dark-spirit shenanigans were explicitly to blame.  But the context and the handling in that fic were...just bad.  (Case in point: P'Li, Ming-Hua, and Ghazan were among those resurrected.  They were all out of character even relative to the plot.  Plus, the author had Ming-Hua basically outright call P'Li on being out of character...under circumstances that made it quite a bit more egregious than that might sound on the surface.)

      Gotta go to work now, but when I get off tonight I'll look at all of those links and get back to you. But if Lunastar honestly believes that Mako would ever say anything like that to Asami...well I'll be entertained when I come home that's for sure...

      Here's that in particular: 

      Lunastar derailed Mako into saying:
      "I don't even know why I kissed Asami. She means nothing to me. I never loved her."

      "I don't know why I kissed her. Korra.She means nothing to me I promise."

      And as a further bonus, I found some screencaps of what she tried to hide:

      • Her comments on a "dA stamp" (really just a blank pink rectangle with a message on it; but who quibbles?) that she made. 
      • Another admission to being homophobic. 
      • An exchange between one of the few critics she didn't immediately block (white icon) and one of her friends (no icon).
      • An exchange between Lunastar (pink icon) and the previous critic; the critic is uncertain if Lunastar understands why she's being called that.  She seemingly proves that she does not and doesn't want to.
      • More of the above...plus one of her friends saying that homophobia is something of which to be proud, because people are so mean to bigots.

      Most of the rest of it was those few critics trying patiently to explain things to her without holding her accountable for anything (since that seems to be her kryptonite), plus her and her friends trying to play victim and otherwise being horrible.

      I found him to be a douche too, but I do admit to smiling a bit when the entire guild gave him that heartwarming send off with his hand sign and all ("It's a message! It means even if I can't see you I'm still looking your way!")

      Yeah, there are always more levels to the show than there initially appear to be.  And seconded.

      Halfway through the Oración Seis arc now.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I did see that in between posts. I always thought Mako & Korra looked strange together for some reason.

      I'm not sure if it's Korra's sleekness versus Mako's angularity, their color schemes, or both.  One way or another, their character designs subtly clash with one another; and, in retrospect, I really doubt that it wasn't deliberate.

      Top comment spells it out even more bluntly. I wasn't aware there were people in the western hemisphere who still felt it fashionable to say "I don't support gay rights." Also, listening to them whine about their opinions is about the most tedious shit ever.

      I wish I could say that I was surprised to see such sentiments in this time and place.  But I'm really not.

      Well, that was entirely stable.

      And that's pretty typical of her on the subject of Asami, to be honest.  While I can't find those exact links: she also made it clear that Asami was the only one whom she faulted for their role in the love triangle, said that she found it funny to call her "boring" over and over again, called her "just a boo-hoo girl," seemed to think that Korra should hold a grudge against her for the events of "The Sting" and "The Guide," and agreed quite eagerly when someone called her a "backstabbing slut."

      She also complained, throughout the entire second half of the series, that Asami was hogging screen time that rightfully belonged to Mako.  (Note that the usual claim from the Asami hate squad is that she had too little screen time to count as a major character.  Insert relevant Oprah gif.)

      Of course; notice how it was only het couples like P'heer and Bopal that she bothered to whine about?  Then again: at the time, she didn't know that the show was going to breach her delicate little comfort zone, much less how.

      Actually, technically they were most afraid of Amon's power. Which turned out to be bending.

      True; but no one—least of all Tarrlok, ironically enough—knew that the depowering technique was itself actually the fucked-up specialization of an opportunistic self-hating waterbender.  Amonatak wasn't scary the same way as, say, Ghazan would be; his impact was as a threat specifically to benders, and on an existential level as well as a physical one.

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    • I don't know. I never really thought that Mako and Korra looked strange or bad together really. Just that Bolin and Korra made more sense and just looked better to me.

      It just always seemed to me like their designs were really different, & not in a way that contrasted each other.

      And at the end of the day I still don't see what point you're getting at (and this goes both ways with me as well). Neither one of us has truly proven the other right or wrong. Unless we can die and come back to settle the matter once and for all no one will ever truly know the answer (which has been the bulk of my entire point really). I pointed out the limitations of science while you pointed out the limitations of faith...

      The point is that "you can't prove it wrong" isn't a very good basis to believe something. Induction can't ever really "prove X doesn't exist," it can only continuously fail to find evidence that it does. Technically, I can't prove Superman doesn't exist either, but all of the evidence says it's extremely unlikely. Or, as Dawkins puts it, a This page 6.9 on the scale of theistic probability is better than 7. Also that, for all the talk of limitations of science, faith doesn't really do anything. There is not a single thing science can't prove that faith can.

      Either way, it was an interesting conversation though I don't think I expressed my beliefs as well as I could have had this been a face to face conversation lol.

      I don't see why, usually it's much easier to argue something over the internet, with the benefit of editing, Google, hyperlinking, lack of time limits, & so on.

      What I think I said once was that both brothers are supposed to be attractive, but Mako is essentially a classic bishōnen while Bolin is cute and endearing.

      That sounds about right.

      Here's that in particular:

      I'm mostly just mad about how poorly written this is.

      Another admission to being homophobic.

      So, if I'm reading this right, "I make it a point to avoid gay people in real life, but reserve my outright scorn for fictional gay people, so that makes it okay!"?

      An exchange between one of the few critics she didn't immediately block (white icon) and one of her friends (no icon).

      An exchange between Lunastar (pink icon) and the previous critic; the critic is uncertain if Lunastar understands why she's being called that. She seemingly proves that she does not and doesn't want to.

      More of the above...plus one of her friends saying that homophobia is something of which to be proud, because people are so mean to bigots.

      Those exchanges were fucking priceless. I'd like to see someone just respond to her with, "I don't respect your opinion, your opinion is shit, & since that's my opinion, I guess you have to respect it."

      I'm not sure if it's Korra's sleekness versus Mako's angularity, their color schemes, or both. One way or another, their character designs subtly clash with one another; and, in retrospect, I really doubt that it wasn't deliberate.

      Oh good, I'm not crazy. Or at least, not the only one who is. I feel like pretty much every couple's designs (also Borra) have complemented each other except for the pair of them.

      I wish I could say that I was surprised to see such sentiments in this time and place. But I'm really not.

      I'm not surprised about seeing the sentiment, I'm just surprised he didn't try to cover it behind more acceptable language.

      And that's pretty typical of her on the subject of Asami, to be honest.

      It's things like this that make me think Deviantart was a mistake. If you're going to use it to upload shitty memes, at least try to be slightly clever about it. "Booo," ooh, scathing takedown there, Loonystar.

      While I can't find those exact links: she also made it clear that Asami was the only one whom she faulted for their role in the love triangle,

      That doesn't make sense.

      said that she found it funny to call her "boring" over and over again,

      Well, it's not. I don't mean it's offensive, it's just plain lacking in wit. Boring, you might say.

      called her "just a boo-hoo girl," seemed to think that Korra should hold a grudge against her for the events of "The Sting" and "The Guide," and agreed quite eagerly when someone called her a "backstabbing slut."

      What Batman said.

      What the shit is this? Why do I always find weird things whenever I do simple Google searches?

      She also complained, throughout the entire second half of the series, that Asami was hogging screen time that rightfully belonged to Mako. (Note that the usual claim from the Asami hate squad is that she had too little screen time to count as a major character. Insert relevant Oprah gif.)

      Back when I was on FiSTeD iT, we called this the "unintentional honesty award." Also, I don't know what Oprah gif you're referring to.

      True; but no one—least of all Tarrlok, ironically enough—knew that the depowering technique was itself actually the fucked-up specialization of an opportunistic self-hating waterbender. Amonatak wasn't scary the same way as, say, Ghazan would be; his impact was as a threat specifically to benders, and on an existential level as well as a physical one.

      Right, but what I'm saying is that if Amon couldn't permanently remove bending, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did. Though they did not know it at the time, what they were actually afraid of was bending. Which is why I wasn't exactly fond of that plot twist.

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    • Neo Bahamut Wrote:
      The point is that "you can't prove it wrong" isn't a very good basis to believe something. Induction can't ever really "prove X doesn't exist," it can only continuously fail to find evidence that it does. Technically, I can't prove Superman doesn't exist either, but all of the evidence says it's extremely unlikely. Or, as Dawkins puts it, a This page 6.9 on the scale of theistic probability is better than 7. Also that, for all the talk of limitations of science, faith doesn't really do anything. There is not a single thing science can't prove that faith can.

      And I honestly don't think that everything in life having to fall into neat little boxes has to happen that way in order to be "valid" either really.  Science can show us how things happen and prove things in that respect, but it cannot disprove anything faith related nor truly answer the question of whether or not there's more to the world than just one big science experiment or that a higher force or being in the universe does or doesn't exist. All science does at the end of the day is explain how things work with its laws, processes, theories, etc. It tackles the "how" but not the why or even if a "why" truly exists or not. That's my point. At the end of the day all people can really do is speculate and come up with theories and either follow or don't follow various theologies. Whether it's a "good or bad basis" to believe or not isn't really relevant IMO considering that the reality is still that unless someone can breach the threshold of life and death and come back with "proof" one way or another, we'll never have a solid answer on the matter and these debates will continue during our time and long after as they've had throughout history. Again, it's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I can see both the values of science and faith (and you'd be surprised how faith alone can put someone back on their feet when they're down so I don't think I agree that it doesn't do anything for some people or doesn't have any merit) and I personally think that both are key in the world.

      Though like I said, it was an interesting conversation and I always like to see how other people view the world whether I argree or disagree with them.

      I don't see why, usually it's much easier to argue something over the internet, with the benefit of editing, Google, hyperlinking, lack of time limits, & so on.

      With technology the way it is, having access to google is a moot point (smartphones and what not), it's easier to gauge how something you've said or expressed will be interpreted by the other person when you're staring at them directly rather than just a computer/tablet/phone screen, you can edit your responses when you speak to someone (don't really see why you wouldn't be able to correct yourself verbally...?). I'll give you the lack of time limits though (conflicting schedules and all).

      Deist Zealot Wrote:
      Yeah, there are always more levels to the show than there initially appear to be.  And seconded. Halfway through the Oración Seis arc now.

      The Oración Seis can thrown down! They completely trounced Fairy Tail and the others when they first showed up. I think my favorite arc from the show was The Tower of Heaven though...poor Erza...One thing I'll give Fairy Tail is that it gives depth to the majority of the characters instead of just a select few. By the time you get to all the episodes that are out, a significant portion of the guild will have had a moment in the spotlight and they all have some pretty tragic backstories.

      As for all the stuff Deist Zealot linked....some people I swear...Lunastar is all like "I'm not homophobic I just hate homosexuality..." and somehow that isn't homophobic behavior to her...especially since she constantly hems and haws when someone points out that she hasn't given a specific reason as to why she hates homosexuality and then gets pissy when people call her on it...?...wow At least Foxie with all her arrogance is more subtle about her biphobia/homophobia....this person is just so drowned in their own ignorance that I honestly believe that she doesn't know how harmful she's being or just doesn't care or just flat out can't care because she's too far gone in her nonsense...?....pathetic really but given all the vitriol I saw on the internet when Korrasami became canon, I'm really not surprised anymore...I'm just not sure which one is worse Foxie or Lunastar?

      I'm not surprised about seeing the sentiment, I'm just surprised he didn't try to cover it behind more acceptable language.

      Like I said, I'm not surprised either way anymore to be honest which is just sad....

      And Lunastar's irrational hatred for Asami is just past the point of asinine. She lost all credibility (though to be fair she had very little to begin with) when she had the gall to blame Asami completely for the love triangle fiasco. Not saying that Asami was totally innocent in the entire thing, but she was hardly the one making the most boneheaded mistakes. That was Mako no question. The episode "Remembrances" spent 12 minutes beating us over the head with that fact...

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    • And I honestly don't think that everything in life having to fall into neat little boxes has to happen that way in order to be "valid" either really.

      Okay, but I didn't say that.

      Science can show us how things happen and prove things in that respect, but it cannot disprove anything faith related nor truly answer the question of whether or not there's more to the world than just one big science experiment or that a higher force or being in the universe does or doesn't exist.

      You said you were a psychology major, so you know about the principle of falsifiability, correct? A claim doesn't have to have any legitimacy to it in order to be "impossible to disprove," it merely has to be given in such a way that it cannot be tested. It's like not playing a game & pointing out that you didn't lose. Sure, but you didn't score any points either.

      It's unreasonable to expect definitive "disproof" of an unfalsifiable claim, because it can never happen, & that's by design. That's how superstitions stay relevant even though they've added no actual, provable facts to the overall sum of human knowledge--they just fall back on the bait & switch tactic of "I haven't lost the game yet, that must mean I'm helping!"

      Also, there's no reason why science should be unable to prove if a "higher power" exists. Anything which exists, & has an effect on the universe, should leave evidence. It may be that it's not yet possible to detect the evidence, but there are only 2 ways for it to be truly undetectable: Either it has no effect on this universe, or it just doesn't exist, & I'm not even sure about the former.

      All science does at the end of the day is explain how things work with its laws, processes, theories, etc. It tackles the "how" but not the why or even if a "why" truly exists or not. That's my point.

      But since science handles questions about that which affects the universe, so if one's ideas about greater purposes rest in something that affects the universe, but for which there is no scientific evidence & the scientific evidence which does exist casts doubt on it, that's a problem. I'm also still not sure why the question even makes sense. An example of a scientific law is the law of natural selection, which says that the lifeforms which pass on their genes are those best suited to reproduce.

      How do you even answer the question "why is it like that?" Uh, because that's what would happen logically? Why should I even suspect there's any "lawgiver"? It's only a called a "law" because of the religious biases of the people who coined the term "scientific laws." If they were simply called "scientific descriptions of events," which is what they actually are, would there even be this same expectation?

      But let's say, for the sake of argument, that there IS a lawgiver, & it tells you why it set things up the way it did. Well, then what? You ask it why it had that idea, why it exists? At some point, there has to be something that simply is & requires no additional explanation.

      At the end of the day all people can really do is speculate and come up with theories and either follow or don't follow various theologies. Whether it's a "good or bad basis" to believe or not isn't really relevant IMO considering that the reality is still that unless someone can breach the threshold of life and death and come back with "proof" one way or another,

      You can't come back from the dead with proof that there's no existence after death, which is what everything we know points to. So, why is it "not really relevant" whether or not someone's beliefs are based in those facts? Why should it be necessary to have an apparently impossible event happen before there's enough proof to draw a conclusion from? Why should it matter that people who don't want to accept that conclusion continue to debate it? It's not like you defend this in other contexts, as we both agreed that the Bible obviously evolved over time, without needing to be told by Jesus himself, & even though plenty of other people argue that it didn't.

      I can see both the values of science and faith (and you'd be surprised how faith alone can put someone back on their feet when they're down so I don't think I agree that it doesn't do anything for some people) and I personally think that both are key in the world.

      The context up until now has been in truth claims, how someone's beliefs affect their personal life has nothing to do with whether or not those beliefs are true. Which leads me to another problem with the non-overlapping magesteria doctrine: It's about as effective as the Treaty of Versailles. Theology says that science can't intrude on its territory, but then it comes in & trudges all over science's territory. It's one thing to say that theology meets emotional needs that science doesn't, but it's quite another to say that it has some kind of knowledge about a magical force that science doesn't & can't obtain.

      Though, even overlooking that, I'd still be inclined to ask, "So?" If there are dozens of different types of faith, & even people who have none, yet they all have the same reactions to stimuli on average, then clearly it's not the faith that's doing anything, it's the person's attitude. The faith is, at best, a placebo.

      With technology the way it is, having access to google is a moot point [...] I'll give you the lack of time limits though (conflicting schedules and all).

      Google: There are reasons I only use my phone for internet if I have no other options. It's slower, it has less memory, it's easier to use a keyboard than thumbs & a touch screen, it's even if I have my phone, I can't show them a significantly long page & still keep the flow of the conversation going. Same thing if it takes a while to research something.

      Reactions: That is the only major advantage I can see.

      Editing: Trying to correct yourself after the fact is a whole different world. Right now, you have no idea what sentences I've stumbled over, what mistakes I've made in word choice, where I couldn't think of the next thing I wanted to say, & more, because it was all edited into a seamless stream of text before I even hit the send button. There is no confusion trying to follow any of my various corrections, because you never saw the initial fuckup that I had to get rid of.

      Time: Also it doesn't matter if I think of the perfect response in 2 seconds or 2 days.

      There are other advantages I could think of. Formatting, since the only way I can really change emphasis when I'm speaking is to obnoxiously raise my voice or elongate what I'm saying, the fact that what I said can be read over & over again without having to rely on me remembering it, & so on.

      As for all the stuff Deist Zealot linked....some people I swear...Lunastar is all like "I'm not homophobic I just hate homosexuality..." and somehow that isn't homophobic behavior to her...?

      If I had a gold coin for every time someone pulled that damn semantics argument, I could suffer a fatal injury trying to imitate Scrooge McDuck.

      Like I said, I'm not surprised either way anymore to be honest which is just sad....

      Even when I shouldn't be surprised, I am still surprised.

      Not saying that Asami was totally innocent in the entire thing, but she was hardly the one making the most boneheaded mistakes.

      I honestly can't think of anything Asami does wrong that rises above the level of me nitpicking.

      That was Mako no question. The episode "Remembrances" spent 12 minutes beating us over the head with that fact...

      As if it needed to remind me.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I'm mostly just mad about how poorly written this is.

      Well, considering how incoherent her blogs are...

      Those exchanges were fucking priceless. I'd like to see someone just respond to her with, "I don't respect your opinion, your opinion is shit, & since that's my opinion, I guess you have to respect it."

      She'd hide the comment, block the person, and write a whiny blog post about all of the mean meanies who were bullying her.  Yes, even if it was only one comment from one person; after all, if she'd blocked them and hidden the comment, no one would have any counter-evidence unless they'd been quick enough with a screencap.

      Oh good, I'm not crazy. Or at least, not the only one who is. I feel like pretty much every couple's designs (also Borra) have complemented each other except for the pair of them.

      Mako with a design to synch with Korra's would basically look like a genderfutzed Asami, really.  (Not that Mako and Asami don't have a lot of character design elements in common as it is; it's just that in Asami's case, they're tuned down or shifted in a direction that synchs better with Korra's design.)

      I'm not surprised about seeing the sentiment, I'm just surprised he didn't try to cover it behind more acceptable language.

      They haven't been bothering for quite some time now.  I'd say that events of the past year have emboldened them, but it's been longer than that.

      That doesn't make sense.

      Well, she does subscribe to the "Avatars only fall in love once" fanon, refuses to admit that it was never actually canon, and was crying about how it'd been "retconned."  So the closest I can get to making sense of it is that she therefore considered Makorra a foregone conclusion, and saw any character who hindered or "delayed" it as the source of the problem.

      Joke's on her, tho; it was Korra who vetoed getting back with Mako in the end.  And not only proposed the Spirit World vacation to Asami, but was apparently actually the quicker of the two to sort out her feelings for the other.  But then again, she's one of these fans who claims to just love Korra, but doesn't seem to give a damn about her in practice.

      Well, it's not. I don't mean it's offensive, it's just plain lacking in wit. Boring, you might say.

      It comes from someone who seems to think that Mako getting solutions handed to him by the narrative is a character trait (and a positive one), so.

      Back when I was on FiSTeD iT, we called this the "unintentional honesty award." Also, I don't know what Oprah gif you're referring to.

      This one.

      Right, but what I'm saying is that if Amon couldn't permanently remove bending, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did. Though they did not know it at the time, what they were actually afraid of was bending. Which is why I wasn't exactly fond of that plot twist.

      Yeah, the entire initial conflict was messy.  But it turning out to be bending wasn't really relevant to it being a physical and existential threat specifically to benders; it was just an ironic twist (and proof of Amonatak being an opportunist, being a big hypocrite, hating himself, or all of the above).

      HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      The Oración Seis can thrown down! They completely trounced Fairy Tail and the others when they first showed up.

      They made me cuss at the screen.  That's a good thing.  (And then, there was how I wasn't the one to say something regarding Jura being an earthbender; so there.)

      I think my favorite arc from the show was The Tower of Heaven though...poor Erza...One thing I'll give Fairy Tail is that it gives depth to the majority of the characters instead of just a select few. By the time you get to all the episodes that are out, a significant portion of the guild will have had a moment in the spotlight and they all have some pretty tragic backstories.

      Indeed.  I mean...Gray's seemingly silly/fanservicey stripping habit turning out to be more along the lines of paradoxical undressing speaks for itself.

      As for all the stuff Deist Zealot linked....some people I swear...Lunastar is all like "I'm not homophobic I just hate homosexuality..." and somehow that isn't homophobic behavior to her...especially since she constantly hems and haws when someone points out that she hasn't given a specific reason as to why she hates homosexuality and then gets pissy when people call her on it...?...wow At least Foxie with all her arrogance is more subtle about her biphobia/homophobia....this person is just so drowned in their own ignorance that I honestly believe that she doesn't know how harmful she's being or just doesn't care or just flat out can't care because she's too far gone in her nonsense...?....pathetic really but given all the vitriol I saw on the internet when Korrasami became canon, I'm really not surprised anymore...I'm just not sure which one is worse Foxie or Lunastar?

      I don't know; people like Lunastar are more openly virulent, but that makes them easy to spot.  People like Foxie are insidious.

      Like I said, I'm not surprised either way anymore to be honest which is just sad....

      You and me both.

      And Lunastar's irrational hatred for Asami is just past the point of asinine. She lost all credibility (though to be fair she had very little to begin with) when she had the gall to blame Asami completely for the love triangle fiasco. Not saying that Asami was totally innocent in the entire thing, but she was hardly the one making the most boneheaded mistakes. That was Mako no question. The episode "Remembrances" spent 12 minutes beating us over the head with that fact...

      I mean...the worst thing Asami did was impulsively kiss Mako—when he was unattached—in an understandable moment of weakness.  Even Korra strayed further out of line than that (after all: when she kissed Mako in a moment of vulnerability, he was—however ironically—dating her future lady-love).  And neither of them lied, dragged things out, kept secrets they shouldn't have, shifted blame onto everyone else, or tried to make excuses for it after the fact.

      But according to Lunastar: Asami kissing Mako in a moment of vulnerability, when neither of them were in a romantic relationship with anyone (and later, sharing a mutual kiss with him) qualifies her as an evil underhanded hussy who was stealing Korra's man.  Meanwhile, Mako gets complete carte blanche to be irresponsible.  (And while Korra gets leeway up to a point: heaven forbid she move on.)

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Well, considering how incoherent her blogs are...

      Yeah, that was another thing that got on my nerves. She just kept ranting and repeating the same thing over and over across multiple sentences. All those words to just basically say "I'm homophobic and I'm proud!"

      She'd hide the comment, block the person, and write a whiny blog post about all of the mean meanies who were bullying her.  Yes, even if it was only one comment from one person; after all, if she'd blocked them and hidden the comment, no one would have any counter-evidence unless they'd been quick enough with a screencap.

      Speaking of screen caps, didn't you screen cap a lot of her bullshit on your own tumblr blog back then or were you referring to someone else with those? I think it was you anyway, it could have been someone else and you reblogged them...?

      Mako with a design to synch with Korra's would basically look like a genderfutzed Asami, really.  (Not that Mako and Asami don't have a lot of character design elements in common as it is; it's just that in Asami's case, they're tuned down or shifted in a direction that synchs better with Korra's design.)

      I actually thought Mako and Asami looked really cute together too back in the day. I was all Borra and Masami pre love triangle (or at least I was watching under the assumption that those two ships would sail with canons lol)....then everything changed when Book 1 Chapter 5 attacked...

      Well, she does subscribe to the "Avatars only fall in love once" fanon, refuses to admit that it was never actually canon, and was crying about how it'd been "retconned."  So the closest I can get to making sense of it is that she therefore considered Makorra a foregone conclusion, and saw any character who hindered or "delayed" it as the source of the problem.

      Wow...and I thought Foxie had no chill when it came to irrational Asami hate. Still not quite sure which one is worse. Foxie for being arrogant and subtle or Lunastar for her more blatant homophobia...

      Joke's on her, tho; it was Korra who vetoed getting back with Mako in the end.  And not only proposed the Spirit World vacation to Asami, but was apparently actually the quicker of the two to sort out her feelings for the other.  But then again, she's one of these fans who claims to just love Korra, but doesn't seem to give a damn about her in practice.

      Yep. The fact that people like Foxie and Lunastar won't acknowledge that both Korra and Mako agreed that they don't work romantically even after all this time is quite telling. Again which is worse, Foxie with her Korvira nonsense or Lunastar with her "I'm not homophobic I just hate homosexuality" mantra...?

      It comes from someone who seems to think that Mako getting solutions handed to him by the narrative is a character trait (and a positive one), so.

      What I don't understand is that she acknowledged that Mako cheated on Asami (even if she said she "didn't care"). Okay, so why would she want someone paired with Korra who already lied to and cheated on another girl? If I claimed to love Korra as a character, I wouldn't want her paired with someone who lied and cheated. What's to stop him from being dishonest a with Korra this time (which by the way nothing did stop him from doing so)?

      They made me cuss at the screen.  That's a good thing.  (And then, there was how I wasn't the one to say something regarding Jura being an earthbender; so there.)

      Ha! You too? As for Jura, I sometimes have to wonder if Hiro Mashima watched any of the Avatar franchise when writing him. He's a badass though.

      Indeed.  I mean...Gray's seemingly silly/fanservicey stripping habit turning out to be more along the lines of paradoxical undressing speaks for itself.

      Yeah Mashima has a way of making even the most minute or crazy detail about a character or an event have a sort of depth one wouldn't expect it to right off. Fairy Tail definitely isn't perfect by any means but I will say it's some of the most fun I've had watching any anime these past few years (been following it off and on since like 2011 or so. I think it was first released in 2009).

      I don't know; people like Lunastar are more openly virulent, but that makes them easy to spot.  People like Foxie are insidious.

      Same. Either way, good luck getting them to admit anything or not try to act like a victim when called on something...

      I mean...the worst thing Asami did was impulsively kiss Mako—when he was unattached—in an understandable moment of weakness.  Even Korra strayed further out of line than that (after all: when she kissed Mako in a moment of vulnerability, he was—however ironically—dating her future lady-love).  And neither of them lied, dragged things out, kept secrets they shouldn't have, shifted blame onto everyone else, or tried to make excuses for it after the fact. But according to Lunastar: Asami kissing Mako in a moment of vulnerability, when neither of them were in a romantic relationship with anyone (and later, sharing a mutual kiss with him) qualifies her as an evil underhanded hussy who was stealing Korra's man.   Meanwhile, Mako gets complete carte blanche to be irresponsible.  (And while Korra gets leeway up to a point: heaven forbid she move on.)

      I do usually shout "what the hell" to both Asami and Mako in book 2 in a similar vein as to how Bolin called them on more or less dating when "Korra just left a week ago!". True they were both unattached technically, but that was still pretty messed up for both of them to do for different reasons.

      But ultimately you're right. The show did make a point to show us that Asami was in a pretty vulnerable when she did that. She was hardly trying to "steal Korra's man" when 1) he and Korra had broken up and 2) her whole life was falling apart in that moment. And while Mako doesn't initially encourage that kiss, he does encourage their "fooling around" or whatever you want to call it and was a pretty insensitive jerk to Asami in her time of need after Korra returned.</div>

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    • Well, considering how incoherent her blogs are...

      She should get an editor, like I didn't.

      She'd hide the comment, block the person, and write a whiny blog post about all of the mean meanies who were bullying her. Yes, even if it was only one comment from one person; after all, if she'd blocked them and hidden the comment, no one would have any counter-evidence unless they'd been quick enough with a screencap.

      Is she aware that it is, in fact, possible to block someone without being a massive attention-seeking drama queen about it?

      Mako with a design to synch with Korra's would basically look like a genderfutzed Asami, really. (Not that Mako and Asami don't have a lot of character design elements in common as it is; it's just that in Asami's case, they're tuned down or shifted in a direction that synchs better with Korra's design.)

      Genderfutzed? This inspired me to search for genderflips of Mako. A lot of them look like a slightly off model Asami.

      Well, she does subscribe to the "Avatars only fall in love once" fanon, refuses to admit that it was never actually canon, and was crying about how it'd been "retconned." So the closest I can get to making sense of it is that she therefore considered Makorra a foregone conclusion, and saw any character who hindered or "delayed" it as the source of the problem.

      In order:

      1. Even if it were canon at one point, which it wasn't, who cares? It's still stupid, retcon the fuck out of it.

      2. That first tumblrsplosion did NOT age well.

      3. The whole time reading her 2nd tumblrsplosion, all I could think was, "How very Christian of you."

      This one.

      That's just the same post where she says she doesn't care that Mako cheated again.

      Yeah, the entire initial conflict was messy. But it turning out to be bending wasn't really relevant to it being a physical and existential threat specifically to benders; it was just an ironic twist (and proof of Amonatak being an opportunist, being a big hypocrite, hating himself, or all of the above).

      I guess.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Yeah, that was another thing that got on my nerves. She just kept ranting and repeating the same thing over and over across multiple sentences. All those words to just basically say "I'm homophobic and I'm proud!"

      Or, alternately: "don't call me a homophobe; it hurts my feelings!"

      Speaking of screen caps, didn't you screen cap a lot of her bullshit on your own tumblr blog back then or were you referring to someone else with those? I think it was you anyway, it could have been someone else and you reblogged them...?

      Yeah, that was me.  I've been linking the ones that I've still got when they become relevant.  But I had a hard drive die on me and lost some of them.  (And then, my jerk cat killed my printer...so...suffice to say that I've got a tech bill and a list of lost files that I may never get back.)

      I actually thought Mako and Asami looked really cute together too back in the day. I was all Borra and Masami pre love triangle (or at least I was watching under the assumption that those two ships would sail with canons lol)....then everything changed when Book 1 Chapter 5 attacked...

      Meant that Asami's design synchs better with Korra's than Mako's does.  Might be more accurate to say that her design synchs better with either Korra's or Mako's than they do with each other.  (Which fits, because she had more chemistry with either of them than they did with each other...along with she and Korra having more chemistry with each other than either of them had with Mako...and I could go on, but I think I've rubbed it in enough.)

      What I don't understand is that she acknowledged that Mako cheated on Asami (even if she said she "didn't care"). Okay, so why would she want someone paired with Korra who already lied to and cheated on another girl? If I claimed to love Korra as a character, I wouldn't want her paired with someone who lied and cheated. What's to stop him from being dishonest a with Korra this time (which by the way nothing did stop him from doing so)?

      It's because Asami is "in the way" of the OTP and therefore an evil temptress; therefore, in Lunastar's mind, Mako is justified in being less than honest with her and throwing her abruptly over for Korra.  And the idea that it'd therefore be in character for Mako to then fuck up with Korra (as he did) is inconceivable to her, because OTP and soulmates or whatever.

      Yes, there were a lot of "therefores" in that paragraph; deal with it.

      Ha! You too? As for Jura, I sometimes have to wonder if Hiro Mashima watched any of the Avatar franchise when writing him. He's a badass though.

      Indeed. 

      Yeah Mashima has a way of making even the most minute or crazy detail about a character or an event have a sort of depth one wouldn't expect it to right off. Fairy Tail definitely isn't perfect by any means but I will say it's some of the most fun I've had watching any anime these past few years (been following it off and on since like 2011 or so. I think it was first released in 2009).

      My anime exposure has actually been fairly spotty (mostly one-shot stuff).  I intend to catch up on My Hero Academia and watch Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress when I'm done with Fairy Tail.

      Same. Either way, good luck getting them to admit anything or not try to act like a victim when called on something...

      Pretty much.

      I do usually shout "what the hell" to both Asami and Mako in book 2 in a similar vein as to how Bolin called them on more or less dating when "Korra just left a week ago!". True they were both unattached technically, but that was still pretty messed up for both of them to do for different reasons.

      It was "why, Asami, why?" the first time around, much like it was "dammit, Korra!" the first time I saw "The Spirit of Competition."  Afterwards, it was more like "oh, honey, no" for both.

      But ultimately you're right. The show did make a point to show us that Asami was in a pretty vulnerable when she did that. She was hardly trying to "steal Korra's man" when 1) he and Korra had broken up and 2) her whole life was falling apart in that moment. And while Mako doesn't initially encourage that kiss, he does encourage their "fooling around" or whatever you want to call it and was a pretty insensitive jerk to Asami in her time of need after Korra returned.

      But, y'know...stan logic; everything must somehow be the fault of the "hypotenuse" character, even when any remotely reasonable person could tell otherwise.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Is she aware that it is, in fact, possible to block someone without being a massive attention-seeking drama queen about it?

      I suspect that would be counterintuitive for her.

      Genderfutzed? This inspired me to search for genderflips of Mako. A lot of them look like a slightly off model Asami.

      And Asami genderfutzes tend to look like slightly off-model Mako (or a late-teens/early-twenties Iroh the Younger).  As I said: character-design elements in common.

      In order:

      1. Even if it were canon at one point, which it wasn't, who cares? It's still stupid, retcon the fuck out of it.

      2. That first tumblrsplosion did NOT age well.

      3. The whole time reading her 2nd tumblrsplosion, all I could think was, "How very Christian of you."

      1. It was never canon, isn't even really compatible with the proviso that's built right into "when love is real, it finds a way," and is monumentally stupid. 

      2. It's only the screencap that's hosted on Tumblr.  She threw the tantrum on dA. 

      3. Lunastar doesn't seem to be loudly pious.  She does, however, seem to associate at least to some degree with Maggie (the person who claims to "love" Korra but hates that she's a brown bi trauma survivor from a hunting culture, and who is loudly pious).

      That's just the same post where she says she doesn't care that Mako cheated again.

      Dammit.  Here it is.

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    • And Asami genderfutzes tend to look like slightly off-model Mako (or a late-teens/early-twenties Iroh the Younger). As I said: character-design elements in common.

      What in the world is a genderfutz?

      1. It was never canon, isn't even really compatible with the proviso that's built right into "when love is real, it finds a way," and is monumentally stupid.

      Yeah, but I'm saying that canonicity wouldn't salvage it anyway.

      2. It's only the screencap that's hosted on Tumblr. She threw the tantrum on dA.

      Deviantartsplosion.

      3. Lunastar doesn't seem to be loudly pious. She does, however, seem to associate at least to some degree with Maggie (the person who claims to "love" Korra but hates that she's a brown bi trauma survivor from a hunting culture, and who is loudly pious).

      Eh, insert "how very respectable of you" instead, & it works about as well. But I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that she is a Christian conservative. So does Maggie actually say that she hates the fact that Korra is dark-skinned?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      What in the world is a genderfutz?

      My word for genderbends.

      Yeah, but I'm saying that canonicity wouldn't salvage it anyway.

      Agreed; I don't like the concept of "soulmates" at all unless it's deconstructed.

      Eh, insert "how very respectable of you" instead, & it works about as well. But I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that she is a Christian conservative. So does Maggie actually say that she hates the fact that Korra is dark-skinned?

      It mainly just bugs me the way she seems to shift characters' skin tones paler (Korra's the most common recipient, but P'Li, Ming-Hua, and Tu have all been subjected to it as well) in her bad fics.  And then, there's her willful incomprehension of how the Southern Water Tribe would be culturally and environmentally unlikely to produce vegetarians, which seems kind of...ethnocentric, I guess? 

      In summary: it's not so much outright hate (as per the biphobia) on her part as just general thoughtlessness.

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    • My word for genderbends.

      Why?

      Agreed; I don't like the concept of "soulmates" at all unless it's deconstructed.

      Statistically speaking, if soul mates were a thing, we'd all be extinct by now.

      And then, there's her willful incomprehension of how the Southern Water Tribe would be culturally and environmentally unlikely to produce vegetarians, which seems kind of...ethnocentric, I guess?

      But...they canonically eat a lot of meat. How on earth can she possibly defend that?

      In summary: it's not so much outright hate (as per the biphobia) on her part as just general thoughtlessness.

      Seems a particularly charming individual.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Or, alternately: "don't call me a homophobe; it hurts my feelings!"

      Yeah, that too.

      Yeah, that was me.  I've been linking the ones that I've still got when they become relevant.  But I had a hard drive die on me and lost some of them.  (And then, my jerk cat killed my printer...so...suffice to say that I've got a tech bill and a list of lost files that I may never get back.)

      Damn that sucks...that's why I try to email files to myself to avoid that scenario along with having multiple external drives. Cats are mean apparently...

      Meant that Asami's design synchs better with Korra's than Mako's does.  Might be more accurate to say that her design synchs better with either Korra's or Mako's than they do with each other.  (Which fits, because she had more chemistry with either of them than they did with each other...along with she and Korra having more chemistry with each other than either of them had with Mako...and I could go on, but I think I've rubbed it in enough.)

      I concur. I think we've both ranted enough on that topic both here and on tumblr lol.

      It's because Asami is "in the way" of the OTP and therefore an evil temptress; therefore, in Lunastar's mind, Mako is justified in being less than honest with her and throwing her abruptly over for Korra.  And the idea that it'd therefore be in character for Mako to then fuck up with Korra (as he did) is inconceivable to her, because OTP and soulmates or whatever.Yes, there were a lot of "therefores" in that paragraph; deal with it.

      Having that many "therefores" is the only accurate way to explain this type of person's illogic though so I'll let it slide lol.

      My anime exposure has actually been fairly spotty (mostly one-shot stuff).  I intend to catch up on My Hero Academia and watch Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress when I'm done with Fairy Tail.

      Yeah, same. I've only watched a select few anime growing up (Yu Yu Hakusho, Tenchi Muyo, Rurouni Kenshin, Sailor Moon, Monster Rancher, Pokemon, and Digimon to name a few). However, all throughout high school I had friends who collected manga and they would bring them to school and we'd all read them. I didn't have as much time to sit down and watch shows back then (between schoolwork, Spanish Club, Drama Club, band class, practice and traveling with the football team, and a part time job I was a busy little bee) but when traveling with the band or the other clubs to events by bus, reading manga was a good way to pass the time. I think back then ATLA (which technically isn't an "anime" as people know the term) was one of the last shows I watched on conventional T.V.

      It was "why, Asami, why?" the first time around, much like it was "dammit, Korra!" the first time I saw "The Spirit of Competition."  Afterwards, it was more like "oh, honey, no" for both

      Yeah, that's pretty much were I am now even if I still have a hard time stomaching the love triangle...

      But, y'know...stan logic; everything must somehow be the fault of the "hypotenuse" character, even when any remotely reasonable person could tell otherwise.

      Yeah "reasonable" being the key word...

      Agreed; I don't like the concept of "soulmates" at all unless it's deconstructed.

      Same.

      It mainly just bugs me the way she seems to shift characters' skin tones paler (Korra's the most common recipient, but P'Li, Ming-Hua, and Tu have all been subjected to it as well) in her bad fics. And then, there's her willful incomprehension of how the Southern Water Tribe would be culturally and environmentally unlikely to produce vegetarians, which seems kind of...ethnocentric, I guess? In summary: it's not so much outright hate (as per the biphobia) on her part as just general thoughtlessness.

      I'm not even sure I want to know where she even got the idea to put the words "vegetarians" and "Southern Water Tribe" in the same sentence and expect it to work...I'm like Neo...Wut?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Why?

      Because there are apparently connotations associated with "genderbend" (excessive, obnoxious fanservice, for one) that, in my experience, don't get attached if I say "genderfutz."  No idea why.

      Statistically speaking, if soul mates were a thing, we'd all be extinct by now.

      Probably.

      But...they canonically eat a lot of meat. How on earth can she possibly defend that?

      No fucking clue.

      Seems a particularly charming individual.

      Yeah.  And on top of that, her usual response to criticism of any sort is to call critics "haters."  Which I suppose is less disingenuous than "bullies," but even so.

      HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Damn that sucks...that's why I try to email files to myself to avoid that scenario along with having multiple external drives. Cats are mean apparently...

      My external HDs bricked before the internal one did, and I hadn't had the opportunity to replace them.  And yeah, she's a jerk.  (Not even the first time I've had a cat destroy a peripheral, either; last time, it was a rescue kitten and...one of those external HDs.)

      Yeah, same. I've only watched a select few anime growing up (Yu Yu Hakusho, Tenchi Muyo, Rurouni Kenshin, Sailor Moon, Monster Rancher, Pokemon, and Digimon to name a few). However, all throughout high school I had friends who collected manga and they would bring them to school and we'd all read them. I didn't have as much time to sit down and watch shows back then (between schoolwork, Spanish Club, Drama Club, band class, practice and traveling with the football team, and a part time job I was a busy little bee) but when traveling with the band or the other clubs to events by bus, reading manga was a good way to pass the time. I think back then ATLA (which technically isn't an "anime" as people know the term) was one of the last shows I watched on conventional T.V.

      As far as me goes: I didn't have much access to TV as a kid, and am still trying to catch up on things as an adult.

      I'm not even sure I want to know where she even got the idea to put the words "vegetarians" and "Southern Water Tribe" in the same sentence and expect it to work...I'm like Neo...Wut?

      Your guess is as good as mine.  Maggie is always gushing about how she loves that Korra is "fiery," but always writes her acting a lot...softer...than she does in canon.  (And then, tries to claim that people are only saying that because she's a Makorra 'shipper.  Note, however, that she also claims that people only call her a biphobe because she's a Makorra 'shipper.)

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    • Sokka's existence alone disproves the hare-brained notion of the Southern Water Tribe being vegetarian as a whole. I mean, how did he describe himself? "the Meat and Sarcasm Guy"

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Because there are apparently connotations associated with "genderbend" (excessive, obnoxious fanservice, for one) that, in my experience, don't get attached if I say "genderfutz."  No idea why.

      Oh really? I thought it was because of the "cross tagging" accusations from tumblr that Makorra stans like to level at anyone who hates Makorra (and you came up with "genderfutz" for a similar reason. Nevermind the fact that they cross tagged a lot of their crap too as well as deliberately looking in the anti-makorra tag and asking for trouble). Like I remember you calling the Korrasami ship the S.S. Mix It Up, and I think Boleska was like S.S. Dammit or something. I forgot what you called Makorra though. Not sure if you had one for Borra, Bopal, or P'heer,

      Statistically speaking, if soul mates were a thing, we'd all be extinct by now.

      Agreed.

      Yeah.  And on top of that, her usual response to criticism of any sort is to call critics "haters."  Which I suppose is less disingenuous than "bullies," but even so.

      Yeah the Mako Stanners are something else, I'll tell ya...

      My external HDs bricked before the internal one did, and I hadn't had the opportunity to replace them.  And yeah, she's a jerk.  (Not even the first time I've had a cat destroy a peripheral, either; last time, it was a rescue kitten and...one of those external HDs.)

      Oh man...technology is great when it's working. When it's not though....and way for that cat to show you her gratitude for rescuing her....wow.

      As far as me goes: I didn't have much access to TV as a kid, and am still trying to catch up on things as an adult.

      I'm not quite as interested in anime as I once was, especially after being exposed to so many different manga back in high school. Like I read the Fruits Basket manga before I actually got around to watching the show and I was a bit disappointed that the show ended prematurely, especially since it was starting to get to the turning point in the story for Tohru and Kyo (though I still like the show. I just wish it could have kept going. I've felt that sentiment a lot after reading a manga and then watching an anime that either ended too soon or went off in a completely different direction).

      I read Rosario Vampire, Chibi Vampire, Getbackers, DN Angel, Gravitation, Claymore, +Anima, Yu Yu Hakusho (that one got me interested in going back and finishing the show from my childhood), Rurouni Kenshin (same deal as Yu Yu Hakusho), Death Note, Ranma 1/2 and several other manga (believe me, in my rare spare time I did almost nothing but read manga for 3 out of 4 years of my high school days. My last year I still read manga but I had more time to do other things like gaming and catching up on a few shows too because I'd taken most of my required classes by then) though I'm not sure all of those even have anime shows based on them and I haven't watched a lot of those shows. I've only read the manga.

      Fairy Tail was one I just stumbled across by chance browsing Netflix during my college years though Netflix only had the first season posted for the longest time. I ended up liking it enough to finish watching it elsewhere online off and on (because it's been on hiatus off and on a lot. I think it's on one now actually) and it got me reinterested in looking up other anime again like The Seven Deadly Sins and Your Lie In April and Sword Art Online (though this one is a hit or miss and I haven't finished it). Another show I hope to see a season 2 for is The Devil is a Part-Timer.

      Your guess is as good as mine.  Maggie is always gushing about how she loves that Korra is "fiery," but always writes her acting a lot...softer...than she does in canon.  (And then, tries to claim that people are only saying that because she's a Makorra 'shipper.  Note, however, that she also claims that people only call her a biphobe because she's a Makorra 'shipper.

      Yeah...her being a Makorra Shipper is clearly the only reason. Oh...how we've been mistaken all this time, am I right?

      DrachenRitter42 Wrote:
      Sokka's existence alone disproves the hare-brained notion of the Southern Water Tribe being vegetarian as a whole. I mean, how did he describe himself? "the Meat and Sarcasm Guy"

      I think the established culture alone disproves that notion though yeah Sokka is definitely an example too.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Oh really? I thought it was because of the "cross tagging" accusations from tumblr that Makorra stans like to level at anyone who hates Makorra (and you came up with "genderfutz" for a similar reason. Nevermind the fact that they cross tagged a lot of their crap too as well as deliberately looking in the anti-makorra tag and asking for trouble). Like I remember you calling the Korrasami ship the S.S. Mix It Up, and I think Boleska was like S.S. Dammit or something. I forgot what you called Makorra though. Not sure if you had one for Borra, Bopal, or P'heer,

      There was...a whole host of reasons for why I came up with "genderfutz," really.

      And Beska was "the rudderless S.S. Icy Bliss," Masami was the S.S Dammit, Makorra was "the rudderless Steam 'Ship," and Borra was "the Silt 'Ship."

      Oh man...technology is great when it's working. When it's not though....and way for that cat to show you her gratitude for rescuing her....wow.

      Both times, it was a rescue cat what did for the piece of tech.  My cranky but very spry old witch, who was from a shelter, did for the printer; the kitten who killed the external HD was a foster kitten we were re-socializing after he'd been abused.

      Yeah...her being a Makorra Shipper is clearly the only reason. Oh...how we've been mistaken all this time, am I right?

      And between people like her, and the fact that I've looked for spurious accusations of homophobia and have never found any that didn't come from troll blogs?  I default to not believing such claims nowadays.

      (And, y'know...all of those accusations must be spurious; after all, she reblogged a post containing the word "heteronormativity" once, which clearly outweighs all of the blatantly biphobic shit from her.)

      DrachenRitter42 Wrote:
      Sokka's existence alone disproves the hare-brained notion of the Southern Water Tribe being vegetarian as a whole. I mean, how did he describe himself? "the Meat and Sarcasm Guy"
      I think the established culture alone disproves that notion though yeah Sokka is definitely an example too.

      She was claiming it specifically of Korra, not the SWT as a whole.  But, seriously: Korra tries to get some kushiyaki, then ends up going fishing, in the pilot episode; and Maggie still has the gall to write her as a lifelong vegetarian who was eating fake meat any time we saw proof to the contrary.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      There was...a whole host of reasons for why I came up with "genderfutz," really.

      I can imagine.

      And Beska was "the rudderless S.S. Icy Bliss," Masami was the S.S Dammit, Makorra was "the rudderless Steam 'Ship," and Borra was "the Silt 'Ship."

      I knew your term for Makorra had "steamship" in its name but I couldn't remember the other part. And yeah I figured I got S.S. Dammit mixed up somehow.

      Both times, it was a rescue cat what did for the piece of tech.  My cranky but very spry old witch, who was from a shelter, did for the printer; the kitten who killed the external HD was a foster kitten we were re-socializing after he'd been abused.

      Oh poor thing...I hate it when people abuse animals. What's wrong with people? It still sucks that the cats killed your printer and external HD though...

      And between people like her, and the fact that I've looked for spurious accusations of homophobia and have never found any that didn't come from troll blogs?  I default to not believing such claims nowadays.

      More or less. Good luck getting those people to admit that though.

      (And, y'know...all of those accusations must be spurious; after all, she reblogged a post containing the word "heteronormativity" once, which clearly outweighs all of the blatantly biphobic shit from her.)

      That actually reminds me of another argument I was in with Foxie during Book 3. One of her defenses for a Makorra comeback (and by extension why Korrasami wasn't a viable option to her period) was that Mako and Korra were "bound by some unwritten narrative rule to get back together because they were together in the past because that's just how these shows work" (i.e. she was completely entrenched in her heteronormativity) and that anti-makorra people were just looking for reasons to hate the ship and being stuck insisting on an interpretation that makes us miserable and was full of unnecessary hate (rather than anti-makorra fans being rightfully critical of a ship that took up far too much time and wasn't all that compelling to begin with and rightfully pointing out that both Mako and Korra are better characters without Makorra and that neither one of them have expressed any real non shipper googled fueled desire to go back and try a romance again) when her pro-makorra one was perfectly valid and superior. Oh I wish I could track that argument down. I'll look for it in my archive. It was pretty messed up.

      But yeah, people like Lunastar, Maggie, Foxie and so on make me lose faith in humanity really...

      She was claiming it specifically of Korra, not the SWT as a whole.  But, seriously: Korra tries to get some kushiyaki, then ends up going fishing, in the pilot episode; and Maggie still has the gall to write her as a lifelong vegetarian who was eating fake meat any time we saw proof to the contrary.

      Either way, the notion that people on average from either the NWT or the SWT don't eat meat is pretty absurd...pretty sure tribes that hunt food from the snowy tundra are more than likely not vegetarians on the whole...just saying...and like you said, it takes a special sort of idiocy gall to force that on Korra even in a fanfic...

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      DrachenRitter42 Wrote:
      Sokka's existence alone disproves the hare-brained notion of the Southern Water Tribe being vegetarian as a whole. I mean, how did he describe himself? "the Meat and Sarcasm Guy"
      I think the established culture alone disproves that notion though yeah Sokka is definitely an example too.
      She was claiming it specifically of Korra, not the SWT as a whole.  But, seriously: Korra tries to get some kushiyaki, then ends up going fishing, in the pilot episode; and Maggie still has the gall to write her as a lifelong vegetarian who was eating fake meat any time we saw proof to the contrary.

      Oh. My. Goodness. We're reaching levels of self-delusion(to put it as politely as I can) that should not be possible. I suppose she was fishing for tofu-fish in the pilot then? :P

      But yeah, regardless of the specific character, an Arctic culture is guaranteed to not be exclusively vegetarian by definition. And trying to pretend otherwise is just silly.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      I knew your term for Makorra had "steamship" in its name but I couldn't remember the other part. And yeah I figured I got S.S. Dammit mixed up somehow.

      And P'heer was the "Evil Ghost Flagship."

      Oh poor thing...I hate it when people abuse animals. What's wrong with people? It still sucks that the cats killed your printer and external HD though...

      Someone was apparently bragging about punting the poor little guy. This was an approximately three-month-old kitten; I'm surprised he hadn't sustained any severe injuries, and I'm fairly sure they'd eventually have killed him.  As it was, he was a panicky little wreck by the time we got him (although he'd calmed down by the time we placed him).

      More or less. Good luck getting those people to admit that though.

      I've seriously seen someone try to argue that it was a thing over something they saw on a troll blog.  And then, when I pointed out that it was a troll blog, they insulted me rather than admit that they were wrong.  Fun times.

      That actually reminds me of another argument I was in with Foxie during Book 3. One of her defenses for a Makorra comeback (and by extension why Korrasami wasn't a viable option to her period) was that Mako and Korra were "bound by some unwritten narrative rule to get back together because they were together in the past because that's just how these shows work" (i.e. she was completely entrenched in her heteronormativity) and that anti-makorra people were just looking for reasons to hate the ship and being stuck insisting on an interpretation that makes us miserable and was full of unnecessary hate (rather than anti-makorra fans being rightfully critical of a ship that took up far too much time and wasn't all that compelling to begin with and rightfully pointing out that both Mako and Korra are better characters without Makorra and that neither one of them have expressed any real non shipper googled fueled desire to go back and try a romance again) when her pro-makorra one was perfectly valid and superior. Oh I wish I could track that argument down. I'll look for it in my archive. It was pretty messed up. But yeah, people like Lunastar, Maggie, Foxie and so on make me lose faith in humanity really...

      "Unwritten narrative rule" usually translates to "it's what I wanted from the story."  That's a perfect example; Foxie is ridiculous for thinking that it's a valid argument, much less that it's an I-win button.

      Either way, the notion that people on average from either the NWT or the SWT don't eat meat is pretty absurd...pretty sure tribes that hunt food from the snowy tundra are more than likely not vegetarians on the whole...just saying...and like you said, it takes a special sort of idiocy gall to force that on Korra even in a fanfic...

      I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when she claims to "love" Korra, it makes me think of a manipulative parent claiming to "love" a child whom they're emotionally abusing.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      And P'heer was the "Evil Ghost Flagship."

      Ha! Nice!

      Someone was apparently bragging about punting the poor little guy. This was an approximately three-month-old kitten; I'm surprised he hadn't sustained any severe injuries, and I'm fairly sure they'd eventually have killed him.  As it was, he was a panicky little wreck by the time we got him (although he'd calmed down by the time we placed him).

      Man, that's terrible. There's some messed up people in the world. Though I'm glad you got to him in time to help.

      I've seriously seen someone try to argue that it was a thing over something they saw on a troll blog.  And then, when I pointed out that it was a troll blog, they insulted me rather than admit that they were wrong.  Fun times.

      Was this by chance that obvious "anti-makorra satire" blog that spent it's time making inaccurate and strawmanning jokes about the anti-makorra fandom at large? If so, I remember a lot of people (myself included) calling that blog out. I especially remember the lying cat meme you used a lot.

      "Unwritten narrative rule" usually translates to "it's what I wanted from the story."  That's a perfect example; Foxie is ridiculous for thinking that it's a valid argument, much less that it's an I-win button.

      Yeah, the entire thing on Foxie's end was a combination of her continuously buying into the whole "Avatar Soulmate fandom" idea, her arrogantly insisting that book 3 Makorra "build up" (if you really want to call it that) was just the two of them "taking a break to figure things out" and would not consider any other interpretation as viable (such as me and a lot of others pointing out that a few awkward moments post break up between them doesn't automatically constitute sexual tension, especially since neither one of them have expressed any real desire to try their romance again after both acknowledged that they didn't work before), and her heteronormativity/biphobia regarding Korrasami.

      Oh yeah, to Foxie they can be good friends and everything's cool. Mentioning the two of them (Korrasami) being a possible thing (pre finale) and she would arrogantly shoot it down on the grounds of "I don't agree with it so therefore it's not going to happen". She just would not accept the possibility that Mako and Korra could, you know, break up permanently and move forward as friends rather than lovers at that time. And when the finale actually happened...well let's just say that we weren't the only ones shooting down her crap.

      To be fair, I didn't think it would happen either but that had to to do more with me being completely convinced that Nickelodeon would not let them go there rather than Korrasami not having any real basis in the narrative in books 3 and 4. I'm still looking for it in my archives though I might have deleted it just to get that noise off my dashboard back then out of frustration with Foxie.

      I haven't found the argument yet, but here's another piece of the one I linked a few months ago in that other thread we broke. This part of it was this fool "bob" trying too hard and failing to be sarcastic (and I'm pretty sure was part of the anti-makorra satire blog I mentioned earlier). And here's is more of my rebuttal to both her and Foxie's nonsense. Note how Bob tries to backtrack. 

      I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when she claims to "love" Korra, it makes me think of a manipulative parent claiming to "love" a child whom they're emotionally abusing.

      Yeah, that pretty much sums it up sadly.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      Was this by chance that obvious "anti-makorra satire" blog that spent it's time making inaccurate and strawmanning jokes about the anti-makorra fandom at large? If so, I remember a lot of people (myself included) calling that blog out. I especially remember the lying cat meme you used a lot.

      I think it was actually a "sarcastic" strawman post from someone who was otherwise a really obvious bitter Makorra holdout.

      Yeah, the entire thing on Foxie's end was a combination of her continuously buying into the whole "Avatar Soulmate fandom" idea, her arrogantly insisting that book 3 Makorra "build up" (if you really want to call it that) was just the two of them "taking a break to figure things out" and would not consider any other interpretation as viable (such as me and a lot of others pointing out that a few awkward moments post break up between them doesn't automatically constitute sexual tension, especially since neither one of them have expressed any real desire to try their romance again after both acknowledged that they didn't work before), and her heteronormativity/biphobia regarding Korrasami. Oh yeah, to Foxie they can be good friends and everything's cool. Mentioning the two of them (Korrasami) being a possible thing (pre finale) and she would arrogantly shoot it down on the grounds of "I don't agree with it so therefore it's not going to happen". She just would not accept the possibility that Mako and Korra could, you know, break up permanently and move forward as friends rather than lovers at that time. And when the finale actually happened... well let's just say that we weren't the only ones shooting down her crap.

      Some nice insights there (most of this comment thread stands out in particular).  Pity about the "Asami is a useless nonbender with no personality" wank insinuations in some of the other comments; but, what can you do?

      To be fair, I didn't think it would happen either but that had to to do more with me being completely convinced that Nickelodeon would not let them go there rather than Korrasami not having any real basis in the narrative in books 3 and 4. I'm still looking for it in my archives though I might have deleted it just to get that noise off my dashboard back then out of frustration with Foxie.

      Indeed.  I was thinking "what a queerbait" right up until it happened.  Sure, I picked up on their dynamic; but the fact is, queerbaiting is a lot more likely in mainstream media (and anything with less than a T rating in particular) than actual queer content (much less the latter handled in a serious and respectful manner).  So, yes, it did take me by surprise...but that was not due to a lack of development, but to a lack of precedent.

      I haven't found the argument yet, but here's another piece of the one I linked a few months ago in that other thread we broke. This part of it was this fool "bob" trying too hard and failing to be sarcastic (and I'm pretty sure was part of the anti-makorra satire blog I mentioned earlier). And here's is more of my rebuttal to both her and Foxie's nonsense. Note how Bob tries to backtrack. 

      I love how she plays the "this is my field; I have a degree!" card as if everyone weren't a sudden expert online (and as if some of her claims, coming from a supposed expert, weren't dubious).  Bonus points for "#and i have yet to meet a mako hater who wasn't insufferably confident in their own infalliibility" (boldface mine for emphasis) tag, too, as if it hadn't been Foxie who kicked the whole discussion off to begin with.  (Also: "Mako hater.")

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    • I’m pretty sure it was a mix between people overreacting to anything that even looked like Korra getting Damseled and people who already didn’t like Mako looking for more reasons to hate him. =P I don’t get it any more than you do beyond that, though.

      The point that he didn't react like that when Bolin got kidnapped is a pretty good one that I've yet to see rebutted.

      *tears up English degree*

      I'm glad they got that useless degree off of their hands. But seriously, I didn't fully agree with that person either, but there's no need to be embarrassingly histrionic about it.

      Tell me, since your perspective on Mako is so clear and unassailable (and more importantly, not based on any interpretation whatsoever), could you start tackling the works of Shakespeare for us? And maybe the Bible as well? Because two millennia of scholars have been working under the delusion that there’s more than one way to interpret that fucker as well.

      These strike me as very dumb examples, because these texts have some fairly universal interpretations. Sure, you CAN interpret them let's say creatively, but there's not really any relevance to the interpretation that the Bible contains prophecies of scientific discoveries, or that Macbeth is there to be a moral paragon, they're simply unfounded claims.

      Relatively few of the interpretations which exist are considered to have real scholarly merit, & a lot of those are interpretations which are not incompatible with each other, such as how you can quite easily look at Hamlet in terms of both its attitude toward women & its message about the toxic nature of revenge with no contradiction between the 2.

      But that this is what Bryke was really going for - not “soul mates” but “painfully honest exploration of the highs and lows of two teenagers who love each other but suck at this because they are teenagers who grew up in conditions unlikely to make them successful at the relationship thing their first time out” - is an interpretation that is completely available based on both canon and non-canon evidence. And what’s frustrating is that it’s an interpretation that critics seem unwilling to accept

      If that's the case, "we don't work" should be a perfectly valid resolution to this plotline. This person is right, I don't understand this rationale, but is that my fault, or does it just not make sense? And what exactly is the point of intrigue, here? Katara hunting down Yon Rha might not make for a "good role model" situation, it might be painful to watch, but it's interesting because it shows another side of the character. You don't know what she's going to do, & you may not even know what you want her to do. Zuko betraying the Gaang at the end of Book 2 is interesting, in spite of what a downer it is, because you see just how hard it is for him to let go of his obsession, & it makes his eventual winning over of their trust even more satisfying. But what is actually interesting about seeing Korra & Mako bicker all the damn time? Where does it ever lead?

      Also, if you can point to some basis for the idea that Mako was a “tribute character” other than the simple fact that he is named Mako in honor of Mako Iwamatsu, please do so.

      What. Okay, look, Thiera is an anagram of Aerith. Yes, that one. It's not exactly a secret. That makes her an homage. The fact that I don't necessarily write her personality, story developments, appearance, or really anything else similar to Aerith doesn't make her less of an homage.

      But what would be kind of shitty is if I took this character, whom you're not only supposed to root for but is also supposed to be an homage to another character, & made her act in a way that is difficult if not impossible to justify rooting for. Not only would I tarnish the presentation of my own ideas, but also do a disservice to what I'm referencing. Riding that line between not making her squeaky clean & making her someone the audience won't hate can be difficult, but it's extremely important. And this is just for a fictional character named after another fictional character. Never mind if she were named for a real person, let alone a personal friend.

      But the other side of that is that it's not THAT hard to write a character who's made serious mistakes, but still comes off better in the end. If I can go outside of Avatar for a second, mostly so I don't have to cite Zuko again, Uryu is first introduced in Bleach as someone who would put all of Karakura Town in danger of being eaten by hungry ghosts in order to prove that his people are superior to the Soul Reapers. But before long, you learn why this is so important to him, you see him express deep remorse over his actions & put himself at personal risk to make things right, & in the space of just a few chapters, it's not hard at all to accept him as part of the main cast. By comparison, I think Mako could apologize to his exes pretty bloody easily.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      I think it was actually a "sarcastic" strawman post from someone who was otherwise a really obvious bitter Makorra holdout.

      I couldn't remember if it was an entire blog or just a post but either way, yeah obvious Makorra stanning troll is obvious.

      Some nice insights there (most of this comment thread stands out in particular).  Pity about the "Asami is a useless nonbender with no personality" wank insinuations in some of the other comments; but, what can you do?

      Yeah, the slight Asami bashing did take away from the spirit of the comments overall (that Foxie was full of crap), though I do agree with the general assertion that Asami was sidelined far more than she should have been. In Turf Wars, that Keum guy seems to know both Hiroshi and Asami so that could be a way for her to get more development or for her to at least know how to go toe to toe against him on the business front.

      Indeed.  I was thinking "what a queerbait" right up until it happened.  Sure, I picked up on their dynamic; but the fact is, queerbaiting is a lot more likely in mainstream media (and anything with less than a T rating in particular) than actual queer content (much less the latter handled in a serious and respectful manner).  So, yes, it did take me by surprise...but that was not due to a lack of development, but to a lack of precedent.

      Yeah same here. The fact that so many people bristled at Konietzko's supposed insinuation of people being homophobic because they didn't see the Korrasami build up (i.e. the infamous misconstrued "hetero-lens" comment) says a lot to me. My thing is, if the supposed accusation wasn't applicable to some people (particularly a lot of the ones that took offense) then they wouldn't have been so vexed about it all from the start, huh? Just saying...Konietzko smashed quite a few nerves to oblivion and back...

      I love how she plays the "this is my field; I have a degree!" card as if everyone weren't a sudden expert online (and as if some of her claims, coming from a supposed expert, weren't dubious).  Bonus points for "#and i have yet to meet a mako hater who wasn't insufferably confident in their own infalliibility" (boldface mine for emphasis) tag, too, as if it hadn't been Foxie who kicked the whole discussion off to begin with.  (Also: "Mako hater.")

      Yeah, the "English degree" card really rubbed me the wrong way along with her later trying to talk down to me and the rest of the anti-makorra fandom like we were idiots. Seems I got the last laugh on all of that now though. I actually blame that "Matt" guy really. As I mentioned in one of those links, at the time I was relatively new to Tumblr and didn't know who was a "troll" and who was not. Had I known then what I do now about him (that he's even more of a weathervane than Foxie and just could not stand for any criticism regarding the show period) then I could have saved myself a massive headache and just not responded to begin with.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The point that he didn't react like that when Bolin got kidnapped is a pretty good one that I've yet to see rebutted.

      And believe me, they didn't have much of a rebuttal to that point during the entire debate beyond twisting the narrative to suit their own head canons...

      I'm glad they got that useless degree off of their hands. But seriously, I didn't fully agree with that person either, but there's no need to be embarrassingly histrionic about it.

      There was more to entersubaru's point that got lost in all the reblogging and snipping (convenient right?).

      These strike me as very dumb examples, because these texts have some fairly universal interpretations. Sure, you CAN interpret them let's say creatively, but there's not really any relevance to the interpretation that the Bible contains prophecies of scientific discoveries, or that Macbeth is there to be a moral paragon, they're simply unfounded claims. Relatively few of the interpretations which exist are considered to have real scholarly merit, & a lot of those are interpretations which are not incompatible with each other, such as how you can quite easily look at Hamlet in terms of both its attitude toward women & its message about the toxic nature of revenge with no contradiction between the 2.

      I wasn't even going to get into the obvious reaching with all of that. I had a colossal headache by that point (I had just finished dealing with Foxie in that same discussion and just could not handle any more absurdity from anyone else on the Makorra stanning train)...Like I said, she went overboard and didn't even make that many good points if any at all...

      If that's the case, "we don't work" should be a perfectly valid resolution to this plotline. This person is right, I don't understand this rationale, but is that my fault, or does it just not make sense? And what exactly is the point of intrigue, here? Katara hunting down Yon Rha might not make for a "good role model" situation, it might be painful to watch, but it's interesting because it shows another side of the character. You don't know what she's going to do, & you may not even know what you want her to do. Zuko betraying the Gaang at the end of Book 2 is interesting, in spite of what a downer it is, because you see just how hard it is for him to let go of his obsession, & it makes his eventual winning over of their trust even more satisfying. But what is actually interesting about seeing Korra & Mako bicker all the damn time? Where does it ever lead?

      That first bold sentence: My point entirely. That second bold sentence: Your guess is as good as mine.

      What. Okay, look, Thiera is an anagram of Aerith. Yes, that one. It's not exactly a secret. That makes her an homage. The fact that I don't necessarily write her personality, story developments, appearance, or really anything else similar to Aerith doesn't make her less of an homage. But what would be kind of shitty is if I took this character, whom you're not only supposed to root for but is also supposed to be an homage to another character, & made her act in a way that is difficult if not impossible to justify rooting for. Not only would I tarnish the presentation of my own ideas, but also do a disservice to what I'm referencing. Riding that line between not making her squeaky clean & making her someone the audience won't hate can be difficult, but it's extremely important. And this is just for a fictional character named after another fictional character. Never mind if she were named for a real person, let alone a personal friend. But the other side of that is that it's not THAT hard to write a character who's made serious mistakes, but still comes off better in the end. If I can go outside of Avatar for a second, mostly so I don't have to cite Zuko again, Uryu is first introduced in Bleach as someone who would put all of Karakura Town in danger of being eaten by hungry ghosts in order to prove that his people are superior to the Soul Reapers. But before long, you learn why this is so important to him, you see him express deep remorse over his actions & put himself at personal risk to make things right, & in the space of just a few chapters, it's not hard at all to accept him as part of the main cast. By comparison, I think Mako could apologize to his exes pretty bloody easily.

      More or less. I haven't seen any of Bleach though so I'll just take your word for it on that.

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    • If I was forced to argue it, I'd theorize that Mako's reactions are intensified due to internalized guilt & suppression. The argument could also be made that Mako didn't actually know Bolin was in danger until they encountered the Chi Blockers, & the Equalists hadn't seemed like quite as big of a deal at the time. Mostly, it just seems as if they were trying real hard to find something to foreshadow Makorra with.

      I really, really didn't want to cite Zuko again. For Uryu's motives, let's just say that the history of the Soul Reapers is kinda genocidey.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      If I was forced to argue it, I'd theorize that Mako's reactions are intensified due to internalized guilt & suppression. The argument could also be made that Mako didn't actually know Bolin was in danger until they encountered the Chi Blockers, & the Equalists hadn't seemed like quite as big of a deal at the time. Mostly, it just seems as if they were trying real hard to find something to foreshadow Makorra with.

      I really, really didn't want to cite Zuko again. For Uryu's motives, let's just say that the history of the Soul Reapers is kinda genocidey.

      That's a fair interpretation, I'll grant you. However, the difference between you and Foxie is that at least you acknowledge that you're theorizing in your first sentence (even if it is a good one). Had Foxie said something like that, she'd insist that her interpretation was absolute fact and anyone who disagreed with her would be nothing more than a "hater".

      But then later Mako and Korra both actually saw Amon take Lightning Bolt Zolt's bending (and a few other guys) away from him (which established pretty quickly that Amon wasn't all talk and the Equalist thing was getting reall) and Bolin was in the line up. Mako still kept a level head then too though (which I would expect from him despite the fact that their entire livelihood relies on their bending at this point in the story and it would be pretty detrimental for both of them if Bolin lost his). By the time Korra gets kidnapped, his meltdown just didn't gel too well with his initial characterization and as it's presented in the narrative (at least to me anyway) it just seems like Bryke was determined to play up the drama for Makorra more than anything else. 

      Knowing Foxie, after I said that, she would insist on me being a "hater" just because my interpretation didn't align with hers because she's some sort of authority on the Avatarverse (at least in her mind anyway).

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    • Thank you. Foxie & I don't appear to see eye to eye on much of anything, I just wanted to see if I could come up with something better, because arguing someone yob's case better than they do excites me inappropriately. I'd also say that, by the time Mako learns that detail about Amon, there's not really time for him to dwell on it, & anxiety is a beast that feeds on longevity.

      There is enough variability in the subtleties of the situations that I don't find it too unbelievable that Mako acts differently, even if I can't isolate every variable to be sure what exactly is his deal. Even very tiny differences can significantly change someone's actions. What really bothers me is everything that comes after, which really hammers home that, whatever Mako's internal motivations, ultimately the external purpose of the scene is to drive love triangle drama.

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    • Don't worry, unless you're either a biphobe or a Makorra stan there's hardly any way you would see eye to eye with her when it comes to the Avatarverse...and true enough on not having time to dwell on the point. I was just as excited to come up with some sort of rebuttal though. Not sure what that says about either one of us really lol.

      Indeed which was more or less my entire point during my debate with Foxie. The subsequent episodes from Book 1 chapter 9 all but confirm that his meltdown was nothing more than the narrative forcing love triangle drama regardless of how anyone wanted to interpret Mako's internal motivations and that was a problem to a lot of people who weren't even sold on Makorra from the outset...good luck getting Foxie to see that though...

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      These strike me as very dumb examples, because these texts have some fairly universal interpretations. Sure, you CAN interpret them let's say creatively, but there's not really any relevance to the interpretation that the Bible contains prophecies of scientific discoveries, or that Macbeth is there to be a moral paragon, they're simply unfounded claims.

      Remember: these are people who, all things considered, would probably interpret Shakespeare in such a way as to frame Beatrice and Benedick from Much Ado About Nothing as #RelationshipGoals.

      HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      I actually blame that "Matt" guy really. As I mentioned in one of those links, at the time I was relatively new to Tumblr and didn't know who was a "troll" and who was not. Had I known then what I do now about him (that he's even more of a weathervane than Foxie and just could not stand for any criticism regarding the show period) then I could have saved myself a massive headache and just not responded to begin with.

      Yeah...Matt's a turd.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but he's a turd.

      HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      However, the difference between you and Foxie is that at least you acknowledge that you're theorizing in your first sentence (even if it is a good one). Had Foxie said something like that, she'd insist that her interpretation was absolute fact and anyone who disagreed with her would be nothing more than a "hater".

      Case in point: this is a claim that she made (I may have quoted it, linked it, or both before; don't care):

      Foxie yipped:
      Even as a platonic relationship, Korra’s interactions with Mako are soured by the idea that she’s in love with someone else, because it’s always awkward to throw a shallower romantic relationship in between two characters whose relationship is designed to be deeper and have more emotional weight than any other.

      Note how she states that Korra has more emotional intimacy with Mako than with anyone else, and that her relationship with Asami is "shallower" and somehow in the way, as if that were objective fact...despite it outright contradicting canon.

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    • Remember: these are people who, all things considered, would probably interpret Shakespeare in such a way as to frame Beatrice and Benedick from Much Ado About Nothing as #RelationshipGoals.

      If it's not Macbeth, Hamlet, or Romeo & Juliet, I don't know anything about it.

      Yeah...Matt's a turd. I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but he's a turd.

      Which one is this, again?

      Case in point: this is a claim that she made (I may have quoted it, linked it, or both before; don't care):

      Recently, actually.

      Even as a platonic relationship, Korra’s interactions with Mako are soured by the idea that she’s in love with someone else, because it’s always awkward to throw a shallower romantic relationship in between two characters whose relationship is designed to be deeper and have more emotional weight than any other.

      I'm having Bleach flashbacks again.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      If it's not Macbeth, Hamlet, or Romeo & Juliet, I don't know anything about it.

      Ah, gotcha.  Suffice to say that the "slap, slap, kiss" trope was probably already played-out when Shakespeare got ahold of it.

      Which one is this, again?

      The guy who set Foxie off in HolyDragon's link.  I've interacted with him before.  It was not pleasant, that was his fault, and he tried to play victim when I called bullshit on his bullshit.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Remember: these are people who, all things considered, would probably interpret Shakespeare in such a way as to frame Beatrice and Benedick from Much Ado About Nothing as #RelationshipGoals.

      Pretty much...and anyone who disagreed would get nothing more than a colossal headache in attempting to point out the absurdity of that because to the stans, their interpretation alone is absolute law regardless of whether it makes sense or not...

      Yeah...Matt's a turd.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but he's a turd.

      Yeah no shit...(pun intended). Like I said, he's worse than Foxie with the way he jumps sides in the fandom...nothing from this show could be criticized in his presence. Nothing....

      Foxie yipped:
      Even as a platonic relationship, Korra’s interactions with Mako are soured by the idea that she’s in love with someone else, because it’s always awkward to throw a shallower romantic relationship in between two characters whose relationship is designed to be deeper and have more emotional weight than any other.

      Wow...the salt mine is overflowing with that noise...

      Note how she states that Korra has more emotional intimacy with Mako than with anyone else, and that her relationship with Asami is "shallower" and somehow in the way, as if that were objective fact...despite it outright contradicting canon.

      Epic salt from her...just epic salt...again though, good luck getting her to admit to it.

      The guy who set Foxie off in HolyDragon's link. I've interacted with him before. It was not pleasant, that was his fault, and he tried to play victim when I called bullshit on his bullshit.

      I didn't realize you had such a volatile interaction with him. The only reason I found out about his issues with anyone criticizing The Legend of Korra in any way was that I saw a post from him on the anti Makorra side of the fandom asking something that was overall supportive of anti Makorra. Nevermind that a few weeks prior to that he asked the question I just linked earlier that set off that entire mess...I didn't know he was a biphobe or at least I never came across anything else from him.

      But, what Neo brought up before, (this point: But what is actually interesting about seeing Korra & Mako bicker all the damn time? Where does it ever lead?) I think this post sums up a lot of people's frustrations with Makorra, particularly from book one and why a lot of people felt that Makorra ultimately led no where at the time.

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    • HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      I didn't realize you had such a volatile interaction with him. The only reason I found out about his issues with anyone criticizing The Legend of Korra in any way was that I saw a post from him on the anti Makorra side of the fandom asking something that was overall supportive of anti Makorra. Nevermind that a few weeks prior to that he asked the question I just linked earlier that set off that entire mess...I didn't know he was a biphobe or at least I never came across anything else from him.

      I reblogged...I think the initial post was "if you think the "Beginnings" arc is the high point of Book 2, it's clearly because Wan was the primary focus and you're a misogynist who hates female protagonists," and my response was something about it not being sexist to think that Korra was being undermined in her own story.  Several months later (as in, we may have seen Book 3 leaks by then; and I'd reblogged the initial thing right after the "Beginnings" arc), Matt comes in to "well, actually..." at me, and tags his reblog "fandumb."

      Naturally, I called bullshit on both the insult, and the fact that he'd dredged up such an old post for it.  And he played victim first over that, then over my calling him on playing victim.  At least one third party stepped in to say "dude...she's onto you; just apologize for the flat-out insult already!"  That's when he slunk off (without apologizing for the flat-out insult, mind you).

      So yeah; I'm not sure if he's as outright biphobic as the rest of them, but he's definitely a turd.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      HolyDragon2808 wrote:
      I didn't realize you had such a volatile interaction with him. The only reason I found out about his issues with anyone criticizing The Legend of Korra in any way was that I saw a post from him on the anti Makorra side of the fandom asking something that was overall supportive of anti Makorra. Nevermind that a few weeks prior to that he asked the question I just linked earlier that set off that entire mess...I didn't know he was a biphobe or at least I never came across anything else from him.
      I reblogged...I think it the initial post was "if you think the "Beginnings" arc is the high point of Book 2, it's clearly because Wan was the primary focus and you're a misogynist who hates female protagonists," and my response was something about it not being sexist to think that Korra was being undermined in her own story.  Several months later (as in, we may have seen Book 3 leaks by then; and I'd reblogged the initial thing right after the "Beginnings" arc), Matt comes in to "well, actually..." at me, and tags his reblog "fandumb."

      Naturally, I called bullshit on both the insult, and the fact that he'd dredged up such an old post for it.  And he played victim first over that, then over my calling him on playing victim.  At least one third part stepped in to say "dude...she's onto you; just apologize for the flat-out insult already!"  That's when he slunk off (without apologizing for the flat-out insult, mind you).

      So yeah; I'm not sure if he's as outright biphobic as the rest of them, but he's definitely a turd.

      Wow....do you still have a link to the reblog? Not that your explanation wasn't clear (that Matt guy is evidently even more of a little shit than I thought) I'm just curious. Still, if he's not biphobic (or as outright anyway if that being the case) we can at least give him the "Not-As-Big-A-Jerk-A-He-Could-Have-Been" award though apparently that isn't saying much...

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    • Sent you a link to how he insulted me and then gummed up my inbox.  I'd apparently forgotten the parts where he'd also accused me of being "uppity" (his word, at that) and quoted Foxie at me.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Sent you a link to how he insulted me and then gummed up my inbox.  I'd apparently forgotten the parts where he'd also accused me of being "uppity" (his word, at that) and quoted Foxie at me.

      I finally had time to look at all that....wow....I love how he's all basically like "yeah I'm ignorant but it doesn't matter because you hurt my feelings by critizicing the show to begin with"....then he wanted to turn around and quote Foxie (the most uppity person in the fandom bar none) while calling you uppity (the irony is just....I have no words)...

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    • Funny part is, he claims to like Korrasami.  But in the same breath, he kisses up to Foxie and Maggie, and rails against strawfans who supposedly hate everything about the show except Korrasami (or at least supposedly feel about Mako the way Lunastar feels about Asami; funny, that).

      Also, his blog title is "haters gonna hate," which reeks of thought-terminating cliché.

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    • Hate to double-post, but I just found this thing and...wow.  Just wow.

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    • I've been trying for months to figure out how I feel about Korrasami, and I think I have come to some fairly coherent conclusions about it.

      Don't you sit there & lie to me.

      I believe people need, and ought to be able to have, deep relationships with people of the same gender, without having to question whether it goes deeper than friendship.

      Because there apprently have never been same sex friendships in the history of fiction.

      Point 2: Worldbuilding. There is never any indication that romantic same-sex relationships exist in the Avatar universe.

      Ah, but if there were an indication before that, then where would the indication have been before THAT, huh? I outsmarted your totally smart argument!

      Furthermore, if homosexuality were a social reality in their world, the governments would have to take stands on whether to recognize them as valid marriages. I'm not convinced that all of them would.

      Addressed in Turf Wars, but y'know, let's not bring facts into this. No, I don't consider it relevant that this was written before Turf Wars came out, since this person could just not spout a bunch of ignorant tripe & reserve judgment long enough to see if the subject will be brought up.

      Point 3: Contradictory Themes. I'm not a philosophy expert, but homosexuality seems to go against the yin-yang principle so often seen in the series, and the theme of balance in the fourth season.

      Well, one of those things was correct.

      If they wanted to have children, their family would not be balanced (I’m of the opinion that children should have a mother and a father, unless death or divorce makes that impossible).

      Yes, you're the "I'm not homophobic but I don't think gays should have family rights" type, I got it the 1st time.

      Putting them in a romantic relationship may support the show's overarching theme of acceptance, but it goes against the theme of balance in the show and especially in the final season.

      And y'know, acceptance is a trash theme anyway.

      Mako and Korra admit that they will always love each other, but they agree not to commit to a relationship or build a future as a couple. So I find that a plausible possibility for Korra and Asami.

      In the great words of Matt Dillahunty, "Lol."

      Point 5: Setting a Precedent.

      Dear Inanna, how many ways can a person find to phrase "gay is bad!" as an argument?

      It basically validates that almost any interaction could be an innuendo, making almost any ship seem like it could be canon.

      What a weird chimera of the possibility fallacy & the appeal to consequences. People have been shipping everything & the kitchen sink since there was fiction, & this is equally true for straight characters & even things without sex.

      Spider-Man & Calculon will back me up on this.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Hate to double-post, but I just found this thing and...wow.  Just wow.

      Well....Neo pretty much covered how absurd this person really was with that....I guess the only positive thing I can say is that at least she didn't pull a Lunastar and outright go all "I don't hate homosexuals I just hate homosexuality"....(though to be fair she might as well have...).

      I'm gonna let Billy Madison take it away from here....I mean what the actual fuck?

      Edit: And another thing....why the hell does near every anti Korrasami person, in some sort of capacity, claim that homosexuality doesn't fit into the Avatarverse (outside cases of internalized homophobia I mean)? I actually find the notion that everyone being heterosexual in the Avatarverse far more asinine than the claim of homosexuality being "against the theme of balance"....

      Where's the proof that homosexuality never existed in this world to begin with? The hyper focus on heterosexual pairings in the original show (mainly because of Nick's S&P but let's all ignore that apparently) shouldn't automatically preclude homosexuality in the Avatarverse but whatever....

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    • That's just it - there IS no proof. Or rather, there was none, until now.

      The issue of homosexuality is literally never brought up in concrete, black-and-white terms, in-universe, until Kya, Asami, and Korra discuss it in Turf Wars. Thus, because the issue was never mentioned before, the argument is that it was not an issue before. It's the classic fallacy that equates absence of evidence to evidence of absence. 

      Of course, Turf Wars completely torpedoes that argument because it establishes, via the aforementioned conversation, that homosexuality and bisexuality have indeed both been a thing in the Avatarverse for decades, if not centuries.

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    • Fiction adds new information over time by design, everyone intrinsically knows this, & barring an actual logical contradiction, the problem is always that they find it "unbelievable" because of what accepting it would mean. You see this all the time with people who hate Legend of Korra. Raava & Vaatu, flight, radio, & whatever else can't be accepted alongside the earlier material because it just can't, & it certainly has nothing to do with latching onto any excuse to dismiss the show they obstinately hate.

      I don't think I need to explain the symbolism behind "I can't believe that gay people exist," it seems pretty obvious to me. I don't consider it a coincidence that these people are generally in denial when it comes to the real world too: Forced to admit that same sex relations occasionally do happen, they feel the need to explain it away as "choice," or "sin," or "okay but it's not REALLY the same as a straight couple."

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    • The logic adds up rougly to "if heteronormativity exists in this setting, that means The Kweerz™ therefore must not!"  Okay, but...heteronormativity also exists in real life—as evidenced by your entire argument—so...that makes no sense whatsoever?

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    • Mako character could've been written better IMO.. But anyway maybe when he zapped the spirit vines and it zapped him back it gaved him some new power or power boost from the spirit energy..uhh ..he needs some arc.

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    • I was fine with Mako actually. The way I see it, he's not that great of a character, but he's not that bad either. He has an arc, we get to know him more as the series progress, his relationship with Korra was pretty important to both characters' maturity (even though their relationship was pretty much like a parody of Zutara or something) and he was a valuable member of the team. That's enough for me really.

      He did become more likable in Book 4 though. He was less brooding and looked more respectful, not to mention his heroic sacrifice in the mech was a great moment. I also somewhat disagree with your point that his love life was the only thing that defines him as a character. Aside from being an asshole boyfriend, he was also very dedicated to his police and detective work (his investigation in Book 2 was pretty interesting if you ask me).

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      The logic adds up rougly to "if heteronormativity exists in this setting, that means The Kweerz™ therefore must not!"  Okay, but...heteronormativity also exists in real life—as evidenced by your entire argument—so...that makes no sense whatsoever?

      Yeah, this is what I meant....It's like really homophobes....can you all not see how that is totally contradictory? I mean this argument for the anti Korrasami side is probably the one that's the easiest to invalidate....and yet they cling to it so readily and it completely perplexes me that they do....It's just beyond absurd really...

      I mean yes on the one hand, we never got anything directly stating that homosexuals existed in the Avatarverse until Korrasami became canon and then the subsequent Turf Wars comic giving fans more insight about homosexuality. But on the other hand, a reasonable person could point out that we never got anything that actually directly disproved the notion either (and anyone who wasn't a raging homophobic idiot would probably assume that homosexuality really was a thing in the universe with or without a direct mention but whatever).

      And as Neo pointed out, fiction adds new information to any work over time just because that's how it works. So again, I just don't understand the "there was no proof of it and it was added to pander to homosexuals" claim when someone could just as easily say "there was nothing there disproving or contradicting its existence either"....despite what some of the anti Korrasami people would claim...

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    • It's a type of fallacious application of the burden of proof, where instead of being treated as "unknown," the lack of evidence is treated as "proves it impossible," & by that reasoning, when evidence is eventually uncovered, it's regarded by Dumbass Pseudoskeptic as a "contradiction." It's also ridiculous to treat every unproven proposition as being equally implausible.

      I also somewhat disagree with your point that his love life was the only thing that defines him as a character. Aside from being an asshole boyfriend, he was also very dedicated to his police and detective work (his investigation in Book 2 was pretty interesting if you ask me).

      Detective Mako Twin Powers, Activate!

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It's a type of fallacious application of the burden of proof, where instead of being treated as "unknown," the lack of evidence is treated as "proves it impossible," & by that reasoning, when evidence is eventually uncovered, it's regarded by Dumbass Pseudoskeptic as a "contradiction." It's also ridiculous to treat every unproven proposition as being equally implausible.

      Is there a working term for that sort of thinking beyond just "bullshit" I wonder...?

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    • Generally speaking, "abuse of the null hypothesis" describes those situations. More specifically:

      It's a type of fallacious application of the burden of proof, where instead of being treated as "unknown," the lack of evidence is treated as "proves it impossible,"

      There's no set in stone "null hypothesis fallacy," which is a damn shame, because the next best term is counter-intuitive: "Proving the null hypothesis," despite how it sounds, is not a good thing. A null hypothesis can only be rejected or not rejected. Say we're studying lions to try to find evidence of homosexual behavior--& ignore that this has probably already been observed, because it's inconvenient to my analogy--& the pair we're studying turns out to be between a male lion & a maned lioness. Our failure to find evidence of gay lions doesn't prove that gay lions don't occur, it merely means that based on what we've found out, we can't rule out the possibility that they don't. No matter how far & wide we search, our failure to find gay lions doesn't mean that someone else couldn't come along & succeed where we've failed. Now, the better our methods & the more comprehensive our search, the less likely it is that the null hypothesis is false, but I'll get there.

      & by that reasoning, when evidence is eventually uncovered, it's regarded by Dumbass Pseudoskeptic as a "contradiction."

      This is just a simple case of confirmation bias/closed mindedness. Appeal to ignorance or incredulity would also both describe this. The person already has the conclusion they want, & refuses to accept new evidence to the contrary. What they're selling as logic is merely their own refusal to admit they're wrong. A contradiction is only a contradiction if we knew for a fact that the original conclusion was correct, at least to the extent that we can know anything to be a fact.

      It's also ridiculous to treat every unproven proposition as being equally implausible.

      Again, pretty standard--it's a false equivalence. Gay lions aren't unicorns. We know a lot of species have exhibited homosexual behavior, including many of those closely related to lions, that they have fetal hormone abnormalities that have been associated with homosexual behavior in other animals (the aforementioned maned lionesses), & so on. We also know that the earliest writings depicting unicorns appear to have evolved out of Greek descriptions of "Indian oxes," which were probably what we would call rhinoceroses, & that later medieval accounts that made them popular were based on known mistranslations of the Bible. Our knowledge of the mythical nature of unicorns is also much older than our studies of homosexuality in nature, a field in which we're still figuring many things out.

      Based on the breadth of the research & the quality of the evidence, we can say that, we can say that we don't know enough to rule out gay lions, but we probably do for unicorns. We also have evidence we can point to suggesting that gay lions might exist, but all evidence related to unicorns points to them being imaginary. At the very least, "I saw some lionesses going at it!" shouldn't inspire the same amount of skepticism as "A unicorn ate my homework!"

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    • @ Neo

      Did you just reply to your own post...?  Or am I missing something here...?

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    • You asked if there was "a working term for that sort of thinking," & the short answer was "yes," but there are different terms that apply to different parts of what I said.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      You asked if there was "a working term for that sort of thinking," & the short answer was "yes," but there are different terms that apply to different parts of what I said.

      Gotcha....wasn't really sure if you were answering me or just merely elaborating on your own thoughts out of boredom or something lol...don't mind me. I've been sick for the past couple of days (and being doped up on medicine) so I'm a bit out of it right now....

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    • I know this topic has been more or less inactive for almost a month and I wasn't gonna post anything more here at first....but I found some more absurdity from Foxie that I just couldn't ignore.

      Remember this post? This is the one that the-next-storybender was calling Foxie out on making shit up to justify her irrational dislike of Asami? We've already covered her nonsense there though....what I'm talking about now is well....apparently there was some follow up on their argument that I forgot about. Here and Here .....Foxie's arrogance knows no bounds and I love how she has the unmitigated gall to act all indignant and claim that the-next-storybender has no real grasp of context with TLoK (especially ironic coming from her of all people)...

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    • @ HolyDragon2808

      Looking over these comments from this The Fox's Den it impresses me how she goes on about how Asami didn't visit Mako while he was in jail and how she snapped at Korra and tries to paint Mako as someone who can do no real wrong.

      For the first point, her not visiting Mako, as pointed out this is likely due to her still dealing with the fact that her father tried to kill her six months ago which is something that even Mako understood. However, here's one thing to keep in mind, throughout the first half of Spirits Asami is the first woman who doesn't yell at Mako, puts her trust in him and when she kisses him in a moment of weakness as a result of following his dumb plan, which is what cost her everything she owns, she apologized for her lack of control.

      And Mako eventually repays this by breaking up with her to get back with Korra when she suffering from amnesia, in front of everyone more for his own happiness then anything. Oh, and we never see him apologies to Asami for this and in Balance he tries to write this off by saying that he wasn't really dating Asami.

      And as for the bit where she yells at Korra, she spends the rest of the episode following Korra's lead and working with her in perfect sync. The next episode has a whole segment where she is supporting Korra and pointing out all the great things she has done.

      Meanwhile, as I mentioned before, Mako tries to blame Korra for losing Wu despite the fact that the reason Wu got captured in the first place was because Mako was to busy pouting over Korra not writing to him.

      And then in Remembrance, he tries to weasel out of his poor treatment of Asami by saying that he wasn't really in a relationship with her which is so thin even Wu calls him out on it. And his whole "Korra inspires me to be a hero" is in complete contrast with what we've seen as, again, he tried to blame Korra for Wu getting captured while Korra and Asami were trying to fix his screw up.

      I can get why some people prefer to ship Korra with Mako but I get more then a bit annoyed when they try to paint Korra and Asami's relationship as unhealthy. And then have the gull to claim that Mako never yelled at Korra when he's done just that and did so for reasons that were far more petty then and childish while Asami's reason tied into her dealing with the fact that HER FATHER TRIED TO MURDER HER!!!

      Yes, please tell me how Mako's reasons are more understandable and that Asami is a terrible person and how Mako would never hurt Korra like when he pretty much took advantage of her when she came back with amnesia. Or when he turned on her in favor of his job and his oat to the law which he broke in the very next episode for Asami.

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    • Winter77 wrote:
      Looking over these comments from this The Fox's Den it impresses me how she goes on about how Asami didn't visit Mako while he was in jail and how she snapped at Korra and tries to paint Mako as someone who can do no real wrong.

      That's Foxie's (and just the Mako/Makorra stans in general) modus operandi in a nutshell when it comes to TLoK...Mako is the saint and as long as the narrative doesn't have Makorra in it then everyone and everything else is either out of character or is poor writing in their eyes. Nevermind the fact that Foxie's distorted perception of the narrative shows far more of a lack in understanding context than anything the-next-storybender said. Good luck getting Foxie to see it though....

      For the first point, her not visiting Mako, as pointed out this is likely due to her still dealing with the fact that her father tried to kill her six months ago which is something that even Mako understood. However, here's one thing to keep in mind, throughout the first half of Spirits Asami is the first woman who doesn't yell at Mako, puts her trust in him and when she kisses him in a moment of weakness as a result of following his dumb plan, which is what cost her everything she owns, she apologized for her lack of control.

      Truth.

      And Mako eventually repays this by breaking up with her to get back with Korra when she suffering from amnesia, in front of everyone more for his own happiness then anything. Oh, and we never see him apologies to Asami for this and in Balance he tries to write this off by saying that he wasn't really dating Asami. Meanwhile, as I mentioned before, Mako tries to blame Korra for losing Wu despite the fact that the reason Wu got captured in the first place was because Mako was to busy pouting over Korra not writing to him. And then in Remembrance, he tries to weasel out of his poor treatment of Asami by saying that he wasn't really in a relationship with her which is so thin even Wu calls him out on it. And his whole "Korra inspires me to be a hero" is in complete contrast with what we've seen as, again, he tried to blame Korra for Wu getting captured while Korra and Asami were trying to fix his screw up.

      Yeah something that's conveniently ignored by the Mako/Makorra stans. And if it isn't ignored, then they use that very point to try and justify his behavior and make Asami out to be something that she isn't. Nevermind the fact that whether or not they were officially "dating" is beside the point. He was still a willing participant in whatever was going on between them and he's already hurt Asami in the past and knows what she's going through now. The way he acted with an amnesiac Korra in front of her was boneheaded at best, completely and utterly cruel and gross (for both girls) at worst regardless of his intentions.

      It really wasn't that unreasonable for Asami or Mako even to have been angry at Korra about her lack of correspondence for three years. From Asami's perspective, Korra told her and everyone that she'd be back in a few weeks (a few months at most). Instead, not only is she gone far longer than was expected, she essentially didn't bother to keep in touch with her or any of the others save for one letter she sent to Asami over a 2.5 year period. Then she goes completely AWOL for 6 more months with no word before the airbender babies track her down. We as the audience know the full story of what Korra went through and why she left, but Asami, Mako and everyone else were completely left in the dark about it.

      In Asami's case though, she does understand full well just what Korra went through and understood that she needed her space. Regardless, that didn't make the feelings of loneliness any easier to deal with (emotions are irrational and messy like that after all especially in light of what we know from Turf Wars regarding how soon either girl realized their feelings for the other. For Asami it was a more gradual realization that she had to deal with alone) which was made clear that was more of the root cause of her lashing out at Korra than anything else (and Korra is fully aware of how that sort of silence could hurt someone she loves regardless so she does apologize for not coming back sooner and for not keeping in touch).

      Yeah, he's pretty quick to point the finger at others but not quick to own up to his own bullshit without people having to twist his arm about it and then it just blows up in his face (as well as others for that matter). I hope that's something that will be addressed about his character sometime down the line in the comic books (if we get more beyond Turf Wars I mean) before he's paired with anyone else. I don't think he "deserves" to be alone for the rest of his life for his treatment of both Korra and Asami like I've seen some people claim (not here). The creators already confirmed that he'll be a better partner for whoever he ends up with. However, the show and the creators both have made it clear that Mako essentially blew it with both Korra and Asami, that Mako and Korra were not getting back together, and Korra and Asami are moving forward with each other.

      I can get why some people prefer to ship Korra with Mako but I get more then a bit annoyed when they try to paint Korra and Asami's relationship as unhealthy. And then have the gall to claim that Mako never yelled at Korra when he's done just that and did so for reasons that were far more petty then and childish while Asami's reason tied into her dealing with the fact that HER FATHER TRIED TO MURDER HER!!!

      Turning Asami's character into someone completely canonically divergent is the only way for her argument to work so Foxie clings to that (il)logic for all it's worth and anyone who disagree with her is nothing more than a hater or "doesn't understand context" the way she does. And in her mind, her interpretation is the only valid one. Even more so than the creators for that matter.

      Yes, please tell me how Mako's reasons are more understandable and that Asami is a terrible person and how Mako would never hurt Korra like when he pretty much took advantage of her when she came back with amnesia. Or when he turned on her in favor of his job and his oat to the law which he broke in the very next episode for Asami.

      Yeah and it's been pointed out that it's weird that he wasn't willing to bend the law for his own girlfriend but did so for Asami. He was too busy to really be there for Bolin, disagreed fundamentally with Korra (to be fair, not without some fair reasons) but was willing to help Asami. IMO, given how it all played out, there is this unfortunate implication that the only reason he bothered to help Asami out was because her problems aligned with his own investigation. His internal motivations may (or may not have been) another matter, but externally that's how it all appeared which IMO didn't really do him any favors either.

      Either way, Foxie will never admit defeat. She'll continue to twist and reshape TLoK to suit her biphobic and Makorra stanning agenda no matter how much her perception clashes with actual canonical fact...something she completely disregards when called out on making things up. She tried to backtrack and say she meant it "figuratively" but that still doesn't make what she said in that first link make any more sense than it did before...

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    • That's Foxie's (and just the Mako/Makorra stans in general) modus operandi in a nutshell when it comes to TLoK.


      On the point of this being the stans of most of the Mako/Makorra fandom I can't agree. Actually most Makorra's excepted Korrasami as the winning ship and even went out of their way to congratulate Korrasami fans in videos, essays or fan art. And fans like Fox are in the minority. Its just that they happen to be a very vocal minority, like fans who hate Samantha Nishimura from Tomb Raider. I've had very fun conversations with Makorra fans and when I presented my reasoning/evidence as to why I prefer Korrasami they have either excepted it or have respectfully agreed to disagreed.

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    • You mean "accepted," & by "stans" she means the obsessive weirdo kinds of fans.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      You mean "accepted," & by "stans" she means the obsessive weirdo kinds of fans.

      Exactly. Trust me there's a real difference between the normal shippers (the ones I have no problems with and I'm sure Deist Zealot and I explained the difference somewhere on this forum at some point...) and the stanners (people like Foxie and so on). "Stanners" was a term coined on tumblr I believe to refer to people like foxie who are just weirdly obsessive and stupid about it all. The ones that distort canon to force their interpretations down other peoples' throats. The ones that will constantly insist that "Korrasami ruined TLoK" and so on....

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