We know that in an underground "Lake Laogai", many women in Ba Sing Se were hynotized by the Dai Li to be "happy" guides with the name Joo Dee to important people in the Upper Ring. We know that when Team Avatar was trying to prove to the Earth King that Long Feng was a liar, Toph discovered Lake Laogai was gone. However, the original Joo Dee that Team Avatar met was still hynotically happy and became the Supreme Bureaucratic Administrator after the Fire Nation's coup.
Do you think after the war ended that all those women, including the first one Team Avatar met, were eventually unhypnotized and became themselves again, with their own names, personalities, and everything?
Or do you think that the Dai Li and Joo Dees are still basically in charge of Ba Sing Se?
I have a bad feeling that, after being brainwashed for so long, the only fate many of these women would have would involve padded walls and rather confining jackets. The mind is a fragile thing, and there is only so much it can take.
I totally know the mind is a fragile thing and can only take so much, but I didn't quite understand the padded walls and confining jackets part. Did you mean most of those women will be stuck in a prison (due to Dai Li) or a mental help house, with walls and those straitjackets keeping them in because they are going crazy and maybe suicidal after being brainwashed for so long and finally trying to or actually realizing the truth of what happened/who they really are? Or did you mean their minds will be "confined/safely padded" to still/always believing they are Joo Dee because their brains' "walls and jackets" can't handle the truth?
A mental health facility, with the "confining jackets" referring to straightjackets. An experiance like the Joo Dee have had is not something that's going to be fixed overnight, and may result in some serious mental breakdowns. Some of them may never recover.
Jet was only recently under the thrall of the Dai Li. The Joo Dee have had their minds beaten down over a much longer period of time, and much more frequently. They may very well be beyond a waterbender's aid.
Agreed. But no reason not to try. Aang was brought back from the dead with water from the Spirit Oasis, true. He needed healing sessions (plural) with Katara after that. I cannot imagine the compassionate nature of waterbending healers would not respond to the need.
Oh I'm sure. Some of the newer Joo Dees may even be cured relatively quickly. But you get those that have been brainwashed over decades, continually slipping into this eerily perfect personality, and you'll find some mental wounds too deep to heal.
A mental health facility, with the "confining jackets" referring to straitjackets. An experiance like the Joo Dee have had is not something that's going to be fixed overnight, and may result in some serious mental breakdowns. Some of them may never recover.
So I was right on my first guess of what you meant. But now my other question: Do you think that the Dai Li still secretly "rule" Ba Sing Se after the war, even though the Earth King then more powerfully returned to the throne, played a big part in the Harmony Restoration Movement, and reformed the Earth Kingdom government back to original form so he now has full power? We never know what the secret police could be doing.
Chances are, for their treachery, they were hunted down relentlessly, possibly on the scale of the Air Nomads a century prior. If the leaders of the world and the Avatar have an ounce of common sense, they wouldn't just leave such dangerous and treacherous individuals roam free.
That's true--that would be really wise. I just wish we could see what happened to all the Dai Li (not just the ones Azula brought to the Fire Nation and then banished). It says on their page's status that they were banished, but it could just mean Azula's Dai Li, and not all of them due to the Earth King and Avatar ordering them out.
The only way I could see the Dai Li retaining any sort of power is if they got a taste of their hypnotic medicine. That way, should they get out of hand again, their proverbial leashes could be yanked. Hard.
Do you think all those women who became Joo Dees just went into politics or government jobs, unaware of what could/was going to happen to them, and were then "slightly" kidnapped and hypnotized and everything?
OR do you think that the women were just randomly chosen to be completely kidnapped and hypnotized against their complete free will?
Orphans would have worked, but all the women being hypnotized looked 25 at the youngest, and normally orphanages kick you out at adult age of 18. But I can see Dai Li keeping an eye on and finding those older orphans when they get older and then hypnotizing them.
That seems like a good idea, but all our views of the Dai Li in Book 2 showed them as secretive and weird, with no chance of having a real family or even wanting to raise a kid (even if it was their job to mold them).
I'm thinking the whole thing would look less like raising a kid and more like sending her to Spartan boot camp, only instead of spears and armor, the weapons of choice are clothing and an air of sophistication. Very tough, very strict, very conformist, not what most people would envision when raising a kid.
I think that, with proper support, the Joo Dees would recover in a few years. If they'd simply had their hypnotism broken, with no follow-up therapy, I doubt they'd become delusional or dangerous. More likely, they would suffer from depression. If they were turned loose, still hypnotized, then they would probably go through their lives while still trying to be "Joo Dee."
They could brainwash people that kind of ability not to mention the secrets they had on the citizens and politics and everything I don't see them just disappearing or being allowed to stay around "on good behavior". It's like a entire force of earthbending Ozai's but much smarter.
I am tied between Neo Bahamut and Empressofmenibone. The Dai Li would most likely be exiled because of all the trouble they caused, but yeah, with all their brainwashing powers and secrets, this would be almost as dangerous as keeping them in the city, since they could come together and hypnotize people in other cities to try and overtake the government in Ba Sing Se again.
That would be very impractical, though. They'd basically have 3 possible strategies to do that:
1. Take Ba Sing Se by force. This would require them to find people capable of fighting, & in large numbers. This really makes it likely that someone will find out & stop them long before they ever get to Ba Sing Se. Then they have to somehow get this force through the Outer Wall. And, frankly, the larger & more organized military is probably going to destroy this force easily.
2. Take it by infiltration. This basically works the same way as Strategy 1, only instead of raising an army of warriors to conquer Ba Sing Se, they raise an army of bureaucrats to take over the city's functions. This solves a lot of the problems from the fighting option, but raises others: Even with everything working in their favor, no problems with the hypnotism, etc. it would take a very long time for a bunch of foreigners to work their way up. The Dai Lee also do not have direct control over what goes on in the city, they'd have to communicate with the hypnotized covertly.
3. Do the dirty work themselves. Hypnotize a couple of people that can get them into the city, then enter & take it. The problem here is, they need people from the Ba Sing Se military, possibly even up to a general. This would be very hard for them to get. Then, assuming they can do this, they have to go up against the rulership & military of Ba Sing Se without any of the perks they previously enjoyed, like secret underground bases.
Now, all of that is just talking about means, but I also question the motive. Why bother? Why go through such circuitous, arduous plans, that open them up to such great risk? Why not just find a village far, far, far away from Ba Sing Se, where they can make very good money from any one of their numerous talents?
The Air Nomad Critic wrote: I have a bad feeling that, after being brainwashed for so long, the only fate many of these women would have would involve padded walls and rather confining jackets. The mind is a fragile thing, and there is only so much it can take.
i fear that you may be right in that air nomad critic
I think some women were harder to snap than the others so I would say it would have to depend. the Joo Dee's make me think of the dauntless under simulation in divergent and that team avatar's Joo Dee was divergent thus she could break out of simulation and women like her could regain her memories and liver their former lives whereas women like the second Joo Dee team avatar met and the Joo Dee's under lake laogai in the room I like to call the Joo Dee training center were not divergent and could not break simulation on their own and needed some help in order to be freed and a lot of support to get back to a normal life and would probably face extreme discrimination in other cities or in Ba sing se and some may have stayed Joo Dee's until they died. I highly doubt that the Joo Dee's would just disappear I mean everybody would notice that the weird smiley tour guides disappeared. not to mention above all they really are pretty good tour guides. I am sorry if I had spoiled anything about divergent to those who have yet to read the book and desire to do so.
that is impossible because Earth King Kuei obviously abolished the Dai li after what they did to his kingdom and only a complete ignorant moron would leave them be. It only makes sense for the Queen whom is a tyrannical dictator and a b*tch to reinstate them.
we all know that they DO want to take power but with a queen like Huo-Ting i bet that she might be a very good fighter or an exceptional earthebnder. besides she brought them back they are possibly grateful for that.
Avatar thoyrn wrote: we all know that they DO want to take power but with a queen like Huo-Ting i bet that she might be a very good fighter or an exceptional earthebnder. besides she brought them back they are possibly grateful for that.
Gun was the grand secretariat of Ba Sing Se (or earth queen Hou-Ting's servant) during the reign of earth queen Hou-Ting who was loyal to her out of fear did what she said and deserted her when she died. Gun is now a member of king Wu's royal cabinet and crowned him earth king with the royal brooch during his coronation.
Avatar thoyrn wrote: Gun was the grand secretariat of Ba Sing Se (or earth queen Hou-Ting's servant) during the reign of earth queen Hou-Ting who was loyal to her out of fear did what she said and deserted her when she died. Gun is now a member of king Wu's royal cabinet and crowned him earth king with the royal brooch during his coronation.
Would not most people dessert someone when they die?
Avatar thoyrn wrote:
i never thought a Joo Dee could love. infact i thought that with brainwashing their ability to love would be destroyed
The way that the Dai Li brainwashing appears to work is that it convinces you to get people to think & act a certain way while believing it is correct. But it only covers up the truth, as Jet was able to be convinced to break the brainwashing twice, & Joo Dee I's act was starting to break down from anxiety until Long Feng reinforced it with the Manchurian phrase. I also assume that, as long as something doesn't contradict their brainwashing, they'll do it as they normally would.
you are misunderstanding something. none of them were really brainwashed, they were hypnotized. and the type shown in the series is impossible in real life. with that being said. once the dai li lost control and no longer were able to repeatedly hypnotize the JOO Dee's they wouldn't suffer from any psychological damage as part of the hypnosis causes memory loss
Honestly, I'm surprised nobody brought up Grandma Yin, whom I headcannoned was either a Joo Dee/candidate to be one or at least knew one and aspired to be one as patriotic duty considering her age would fit and add a fittingly dark reason for her fanaticism.
something bad definatly happened to them, maybe like Azula. After being brainwashed so long, they would be confused, Kinda like Jet in that scene he's being brainwashed, except 1000 times worse since they've been under it much longer.
What if being a Joo Dee was a way to punih female criminals who talk about the war, or did something to upset the order of Ba Sing Se, It stands to reason that a political dissident would be brainashed into being a loyalist, the one thing they hated most.