Talk: Coup of Ba Sing Se

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Change[]

I think we should change this to Takeover/Coup of Ba Sing Se, and include this battle as a subsection. Puragus - Talk 23:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Could someone respond to this? Puragus - Talk 05:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, guys. This is an issue. Do we count duels between benders as battles, or do there have to be armies and politics involved? That's why I support changing the article, because a "battle" should encompass something more than a four-way duel. Puragus - Talk 19:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Puragus, there should be a section about the takeover of Ba Sing Se, including the coup and Azula's schemes. It's a very important part that can't be left out. Omnibender - Talk 21:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Alright, well should we add to this and just rename the article or.......Alex101313 - Talk 21:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, my position is that we should, in fact, change the name of the article. Puragus - Talk 22:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Great. Any one else want to comment? Alex101313 - Talk 23:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, SuperFlash101 suggested it. Perhaps he has something to say. Energybender - Talk 23:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

About the benders fighting comment,those should probably be called duels. Like when Azula and Zuko fought Aang and Katara in the Old Ba Sing Se, it should be called the 4-way Duel in Old Ba Sing Se. Just a suggestion. Zeno Panthakree 01:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to throw out there the suggestion of renaming it "The Duel in Old Ba Sing Se". I'm creating a "duel" template, so we can use that. This way, we can also create a page like "Azula's Coup" and come up with some kind of template for things like that. We can link it on this page, by putting "Main Article: Azula's Coup" in the "History" section. --SuperFlash101 01:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion we shouldn't have pages for duels, just events and battles. If we had them for things like duels, we'd have one for every fight in the series, and that's unnecessary when we have pages for all the episodes. Puragus - Talk 01:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Um, why shouldn't we have duel pages? We SHOULD, I mean, why would BATTLES only be necessary, we have the episode pages in which those happen, too. I've already created the Duel Template, anyway. --SuperFlash101 02:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Because, like I just said, We'd have to have a page for every fight in the series. These pages would either be very short, or just transcriptions of the fights, which is something we've always avoided doing. Plus, we already have pages for all the episodes, so it's unnecessary. Puragus - Talk 02:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, we can AT LEAST have IMPORTANT duels. I mean, this isn't a battle, it's a duel. And we do the same thing for battles and your not saying we don't need those. --SuperFlash101 02:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, first of all, the battles ate significant to the progression of the war. Secondly, there are not nearly as many battles as there are duels, which happen in nearly every episode. Third, what constitutes an "important" duel? (I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just raising the issue). Puragus - Talk 02:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Anything that affects the outcome of the war. For example, this page, the Duel in Wulong Forest, etc. But, I really suggest an effort being made to making other battles. I mean, look at Wookieepedia, they do all battles and duels, and, since they're the biggest and most popular wiki, we should really follow their example. --SuperFlash101 03:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but this is Avatar Wiki. Just because other wiki's have pages for duels doesn't mean we have to. Besides, I dislike the word duel anyway. If we start having duel pages, anybody who reads them will get the wrong image about us. Alex101313 - Talk 13:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It seems like if we make pages for all the duels, it would end up becoming like the YA pages were: little pages that just take up space and don't give anything significant, or spelling out things that don't need to be spelled out, or just repeating information on other pagesl. It's a really messy way to do things. Puragus ^Talk 20:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

What are YA pages? Alex101313 - Talk 20:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

A series of pointless pages that contained little information that used to exist on the wiki until they were finally deleted. Puragus ^Talk 20:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm assuming that was before my time. But in any case, yes the duels don't really give that much information. And the last time I saw the word "Duel" used seriously in a sentence was on Yu-Gi-Oh. Alex101313 - Talk 20:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(lol, I think Andrew Jackson would have a problem with you mocking his favorite pastime) Hypothetically, if we did have pages for the duels, what would you call them? (Just in case we do end up pages for them- just because I'm against it, doesn't mean I don't want a solution everyone is happy with.) Puragus ^Talk 21:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I apologize to Andrew Jackson. I don't have a problem with having pages for major fights, but not for every single tiny individual battle (that would just make us look bad). And so long as the pages are not named "Duel in....." then I might consider. Alex101313 - Talk 21:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I see. But there's another issue too: if we make a page for Coup of Ba Sing Se, there won't be any reason for this page to exist.

I think we've pretty much outlined the argument now. I suggest we put it to a vote. Puragus ^Talk 20:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Everyone knows there's a debate going on here, right? Or, since all the votes are for changing it, should I just move it. Puragus ^Talk 17:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

By all means, move the page; but to what title? Remember, we are only talking about the battle with this article. The rest it has to do with, e.g., the coup, Aang's trip to the Eastern Air Temple, can be mentioned here since they lead up to it, but shouldn't all be discussed. That information can be kept in The Guru and The Crossroads of Destiny. Energybender - Talk 18:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Um...the whole point of moving the page was so we would discuss Azula's infiltration and the Coup. So that the page would not just be about a duel. Puragus ^Talk 18:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not the point. This project was to state the battles together so that they would be identified. If we don't call the page battle something, then we are off-topic. Energybender - Talk 20:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, did you even read my argument? Go back up to the top of the talk page and read my argument from the beginning. Then you'll know why the page is being changed. Puragus ^Talk 20:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I don't want to start anything. Just do with the page what you wish. Energybender - Talk 20:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

sigh* I'm sorry I wrote that. I was frustrated, but I should have been more civil. Puragus ^Talk 04:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Vote[]

Should we change this page into "Coup/Takeover of a Sing Se", which would cover Azula's takeover of Ba Sing Se and include this battle as a subsection, or should we keep this page as is, possibly making "Coup of Ba Sing Se" as a separate page that links to this one? Keep in mind, if we change this page, it would make a rule saying there should be no pages for individual duels, just major battles and events.

Change the Page

Alex101313 - Talk 22:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Puragus ^Talk 20:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Energybender - Talk 22:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Zero - Talk 05:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Joey - Talk 06:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Omnibender - Talk 21:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep the Page

SuperFlash101 21:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments[]

The coup was far more important, and if you can tell based on my comments from above, I'm very against duel pages. Alex101313 - Talk 22:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we should change the page. For pages on duels that already exist, I think we should change them as well to include major events. For example, I would change Duel in Wulong Forest into something like "Battle over Wulong Forest", which would include Sokka, Toph and Suki's fight with the Airships. (I don't want to seem presumptuous, like I'm jumping to the end of the discussion, I'm just making a suggestion of what to do if the "No Duels policy" is enacted). Puragus ^Talk 20:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The page definitely needs to be changed. When I created it, I only decided to name it that because that's what it said for "next battle" on the previous battle page that SuperFlash101 created. Energybender - Talk 22:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

WHY DOESN'T ANY ONE AGREE WITH ME?!? What is wrong with the names and the pages. And how the heck is the coup more important than this? It's just as. And would people just stop! When I added these pages and templates, I did so that this wiki could become greater. But, NO, everybody starts putting talk pages for them putting "we should change the page" or "this is stupid, we shouldn't have this", or even "these pages with pictures, great writing, and templates will make us look bad". JUST LEAVE IT ALONE. I'M SICK OF IT! Seriously. --SuperFlash101 21:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Jeez, calm down Superflash. We are just trying to discuss what is needed and what is not. Because if it is unneeded, then why would we have it? And the coup was the move that took over the most powerful nation in the world, I don't see how this "duel" was of any significance at all, besides Aang's injury which he quickly recovered from. Alex^Talk 01:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Almost all duels or battles have significance. And I don't get why everybody thinks that battle and duel pages are stupid. They ADD CONTENT. This gives the wiki more articles. And the pages are very good. Why do you guys keep commenting on how you hate these? They really are great. Sometimes, I regret creating these, because people keep complaining about them. --SuperFlash101 01:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Who said they were hated, precisely? I find them useful to pull out strings of information concerning battles that are within episodes. Energybender - Talk 01:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Nobody said they were stupid and nobody is complaining about them. We are just trying to improve them as all. Alex^Talk 01:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Better to have a big article than a small one. Zero - Talk 05:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The coup did lead up to the battle, as well as change the circumstances that surrounded this battle. I guess the coup was a lot longer and more important over this mere battle. Joey - Talk 06:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay...[]

Okay, I'm sick of this. For one, it's STUPID to move this page to Coup and still keep everything the same. The battle was important, I don't understand how you guys can just pass this off. I thought we WANTED this wiki to grow. More pages, the better. But NO! Ya know what, could someone just leave these things alone. I'm just tired of it. And everyone just keeps telling me we SHOULDN'T try to make this wiki big and follow the example of the SECOND BIGGEST STINKIN' WIKI OF THEM ALL. Can someone, once, just once, agree on the names and the content, and stop making stupid changes like these? --SuperFlash101 22:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok that is just plain uncalled for Superflash101. Our goal is not to be the wiki with the most articles, it's to have good quality articles and not just the most. Can you please just bear with us and what we are trying to do? Alex^Talk 00:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I know, I know. But I REALLY like these battle and duel pages, but it just seems that everybody thinks they're useless or not needed. Can you please explain me why this is the case? And what do people mean by "necessary" articles? EVERYTHING that has to do with Avatar is necessary and deserves its own page. --SuperFlash101 01:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Because it's not good to have lots of small articles with little information on them when it can just be included in others. Back to my previous point, we are not trying to be the wikia with the most articles, just wikia with however many articles we have. Alex^Talk 01:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand the latter part, Alex, but I do NOT agree with you when you say the pages are small. Hello, look at ALL of the battle and duel pages. Fill the sections up and it's huge. We DON'T include short duels, so no offense, but you're wrong on that half of these pages being small. --SuperFlash101 01:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has a problem with pages on major battles. Just duels, for the reasons I said when I started the argument for changing the page. Puragus ^Talk 03:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I think if a duel is important and notable, then it deserves its own page. If you made an article for every little battle and fight that happened, then we would just get flooded, but some duels are extremely notable. Examples of this would be the two at the end of the series with Zuko and Azula, and then Aang and Ozai. Although this is just my opinion though, so... Joey - Talk 03:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

But if a duel can fit into a page for a larger battle, like in this case where there is a section for the battle in the article, shouldn't we have it that way, to be less confusing? Puragus ^Talk 03:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess you could give it its own little section, but with multiple duels during a same timespan will really make the article sound in whole, quite repetitive. Joey - Talk 03:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused about what you're referring to. At what point in the series did that happen within one event? I don't think there were a whole lot of duels in the coup that need pages. There was a few arrests, and a major battle at the end. Puragus ^Talk 03:55, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't specifically referring to the coup, but in general for duels, if you look at different angles and slightly different time frames, you'll have an article that refers to something happening multiple times, and will be overall just repetitive. Joey - Talk 03:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wait...are you referring to articles for major battles, in which some duels can occur, or pages for duels themselves? Because if it's the latter, that's partly why I'm against having pages for duels- they could be boring transcriptions of the fights. Puragus ^Talk 04:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying that putting duels on major battle pages would be boring and unfocused. Whilst, their own pages wouldn't be a strict transcript, but would explain what happened from point to point. I'm not saying when they're are a lot of duels that happen to make articles for them, but the key ones due need some established importance on here. Joey - Talk 04:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just have a page called "Duels" and list the more significant duels and explain them there. That would keep the length of the explanations in check and stop them from becoming drawn out transcripts. 888th Avatar ^- ^Talk ^- ^{Contributions} 13:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Revising[]

I was just editing the article and I would like to point something out. Most of the sentences have at least two commas in them and it sort of disrupts the flow of the page if you guys get what I'm saying. I began to revise it so the first top half should be okay, but the rest of the article could do with re-wording. Alex^Talk 21:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say most...the article's fine, if you feel like removing some commas that are a little out of place, then that's fine. But commas exist for a reason. 888th Avatar ^- ^Talk ^- ^{Contributions} 09:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC)