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Should we rename the article to "Last Agni Kai"? That's the name of the track heard during this Agni Kai. It would also serve as trivia for the page. Omnibender - Talk 21:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

That's where I got the title. But I think that 'Last Agni Kai' might also be a good title, maybe we should have a vote?

70.68.47.190 21:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I like the trivia idea, but I've noticed on other battle pages that they are discussed like a school textbook. Things are addressed such that it says "Fire Lord Zuko" rather than just "Zuko", "Princess Azula" instead of "Azula", and "Master Katara" over "Katara". So if the title could be called "Duel for the Throne" or "Agni Kai for the Throne", it would have more of a zero point of view sound to it. Energybender - Talk 21:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Distinction between an Agni Kai and a Fight

I think we need to align the definition of an Agni Kai with that of a real world duel for the purposes of the Last Agni Kai. In our world, a duel is an engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with their combat doctrines. Therefore, I think we need to say An Agni Kai is strictly a structured duel between two individuals of the same bending element, strictly Firebending. Saying that the Agni Kai continued between Katara and Azula isn't correct for several reasons:

1. First off, the moment Azula sent lightning at Katara, the fight ceased to be a duel, therefore ceased to be an Agni Kai, as Azula violated the rules of a duel being between two individuals alone.

2. Second, Katara is a Waterbender. The word Agni is a Sanskrit word meaning 'fire'. Kai is the Japanese word for meeting. 'Fire Meeting. Therefore, an Agni Kai is a duel between Firebenders alone. This coincides with our definition of a duel as being done with matched weapons.

3. Azula was crazy. She only planned to have the Agni Kai because she firmly believed she could defeat Zuko without Katara interferring. When Zuko was disabled, the only thing on Azula's mind was killing Katara.

Bottom lines:

  • Katara did not participate in the Agni Kai, because an Agni Kai does not allow for multiple or non-Firebender participants. I'm mentioning this to prevent people from saying in the article that this Agni Kai was special because it was the first time a Waterbender participated in it. It's an oxymoron to say a Waterbender participated in an Agni Kai. That's like saying a swordsman participated in a gunfight.
  • The Agni Kai had no victorious party because Azula violated the rules of the duel... "Just you and me, brother!" Therefore, the later half of the fight between Katara and Azula cannot be called an Agni Kai, instead it deteriorated into a simple fight. This also means the Last Agni Kai had no winner, but the fight that resulted did.

--Henhouse 01:47, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Henhouse. I understand that you have made many edits to the battle pages, and it is appreciated. However, you must understand two things. Firstly, a battle page must be focused and will not include tiny details that can go in episode pages. They should be written very formally like a textbook, as I did for Coup of Ba Sing Se. Secondly, you must understand that an introduction is not a summary of the topic. It must establish the full notability of the topic, and must also at least mention the destruction caused. Other than that, I liked your edits.
About the Agni Kai: Everything in this world has rules, but those rules are made to be broken. There must be some duels that are unconventional. Also, even if you are right, what should we rename the article as? It is impossible to rename this article without making the new name sound stupid or horrendously long. If you want to split the article, you would go against our policy of not making pages for every single duel. Therefore, this page's name and is focus will stay as is and will not change. The 888th Avatar - Talk 04:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't want a change to the article's title at all. I'm recommending the removal of the part of the article that says the Agni Kai was unique because it was the first time a Waterbender participated in it. It's an oxymoron to say that a Waterbender participated in an Agni Kai, read the list of reasons I provided to understand. So, that'll be the only part of the article I think needs removing. --Henhouse 01:02, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps. But if you want it changed, you're going to have to get someone else to approve, because I won't. The 888th Avatar - Talk 04:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it stopped being a fair Agni Kai when Azula attacked Katara. I'm pretty sure that's against the rules, and Azula cheated. (I don't know if anyone pointed that out before, but I'm sort of agreeing with Henhouse). Puragus Talk 05:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It stopped being a fair Agni Kai. Rules were broken. Azula cheated. But that doesn't not make it an Agni Kai. If someone breaks the rules in football, it's still called football. The 888th Avatar - Talk 05:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Precisely! If you want to get very technical, it was really two different duels in one. That's what "Katara Intervenes" means. And just because Azula broke the rules does not make it not an Agni Kai. --SuperFlash101 18:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

sad

this was the sadest part in the seriesUser:Luvingazula - Talk 17:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from putting these things here. Put it on Forum:Avatar-related Discussion. --~Excelsior, The Flash - (Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay!) 18:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Image

Flash, I'm looking at you. Why did you feel it was necessary to change the image? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I changed it back. The new one only had small puffs of flame in a big city. No awesomeness. No real main picture feel. Why oh why? The 888th Avatar (Talk) 20:28, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I did that because the image, along with the one's for the concurrent battles, was overused on the internet. Nothing new. But I've never seen that online. ~Excelsior, The Flash - (Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay!) 15:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Title

Final Agni Kai is also the title of the instrumental music track which plays during this battle.
This is not accurate. The music is called Last Agni Kai. So, we can either remove this piece of trivia, or rename the article to be consistent with it. I'm for renaming. ― Thailog 17:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Same for renaming. It actually is "Last Agni Kai," I've been meaning to mention it. —The Flash Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay! 18:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the name of this page is accurate. It sounds dramatic, but what is it a reference to? Is it because it's the last Agni Kai in the series? Where in any canon source on the show is this fight called the "Final Agni Kai"? I propose we change the name to something like "Agni Kai between Zuko and Azula." Every other "battle" page has a title that clearly describes it and reflects its nature, so I think we should do the same for this page. Puragus Talk 19:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This is certainly not accurate. I say we change the name to Agni Kai (or Duel) for the Throne. Vaznock - Talk 20:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Agni Kai for the Throne or for the Crown would both be accurate. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should change the name to "... for the Throne". I think Last Agni Kai is better due to the music track. Dcasawang1 - Talk 21:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but consider this:

  • The title "Last Agni Kai" is untrue. It doesn't even sound epic or metaphorical like "Final Agni Kai". It sounds blunt and like it was meant to be taken literally.
  • We'd be moving a page just to make a piece of trivia true, and we'd be moving it to a name that's not true or "epic".
  • Agni Kai for the Throne is the truth, not that long, and to the point. Its not too "cool" sounding, but it makes sense and it is not purely named to excite people.

Vaznock - Talk 22:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I actually don't like the name "Agni Kai for the Throne," on the grounds of writing. It's more specific than "Final Agni Kai," but when you write something like "for the Throne," it raises the question: "What throne?" Obviously, in the context of the series, we're referring to the position of Fire Lord, but outside that context, it may as well be an Agni Kai for a toilet. To some casual fans/users, it may as well be that. I hate to be so blunt, but we need to be more specific than "Agni Kai for the Throne." Puragus Talk 02:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't like "Agni Kai for the Throne" - the title becomes longer, and nothing is achieved by doing so - it's still quite ambiguous. As for "Agni Kai between Zuko and Azula", that would be the technically correct title, and it is okay (I suppose), but I don't like its ambiguity as well - it's not as if this is the first/only time Zuko and Azula have fought. At this stage, I'm all for renaming it the "Last Agni Kai". It refers to the final "Agni Kai" in the series, so it doesn't leave any doors open for ambiguity. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 03:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I hate to keep hitting the same point, but "Last Agni Kai" is just as ambiguous as "Final Agni Kai." When I read that title, I can't help but think "ever? Are there never going to be Agni Kais after this?" I get that the title is a reference to it being the last Agni Kai on the show, but isn't it OOU that way? While Zuko and Azula had a couple of fights before this, this was their first official Agni Kai, so to name it "Zuko and Azula's Agni Kai" is accurate. The others were just informal duels. Puragus Talk 04:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why "for the Throne" isn't specific, people who understand the series know that the Fire Nation is ruled by the Fire Lord, the only way it could become more specific would be making the title bigger, which in turn would make the article's name unnatractive. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

How about just "Comet Enhanced Agni Kai"? ― Thailog 18:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ooooohhhh, I like that one. Vaznock - Talk 18:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Any two firebenders fighting during the eclipse could be called that, such as Jeong Jeong and Iroh against Fire Nation troops, or even Ozai versus Aang, who technically is a firebender. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

But those aren't Agni Kais by definition. ― Thailog 20:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Still, it lacks a certain... something, it doesn't feel... notable enough, considering the event. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Last Agni Kai is very ambiguous, especially as it's likely not true - there is likely to be an Agni Kai a week after, this, etc. Anyways, I think "Comet Enhanced Agni Kai" sounds more like it would be a page for a type of Agni Kai. The "Thrown" one fits - after all, we have several other pages that can bring you to this, especially in our locations and such (Fire Nation School? Oh, I see, there's only one in the Fi-oh, wait, there's more - stuff like that are just too ambiguous for their own good) and this one is the less of all. Another name suggestion I want to throw in is "Agni Kai in the Fire Nation Capital" or "Fire Nation Capital Agni Kai." The Flash {talk} 20:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Or, maybe more specific, Coronation Temple or Plaza. Dcasawang1 - Talk 21:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Good. The Flash {talk} 21:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Now, what are we gonna name this? The Flash {talk} 15:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
There are too many suggestions and too little consensus. I think this calls for a vote. ― Thailog 15:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there are too many options to vote on, maybe we should narrow them down first. But hey, that's just me. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 15:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

For the Crown or For the Throne seem to be the best options in my opinion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I've started the voting process. The Flash {talk} 20:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Voting ends today, people! ― Thailog 19:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

So technically, this ended yesterday, what do we do now? Vote between the two highest options? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I suppose. ― Thailog 21:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • For what is worth, I think that "Agni Kai for [Something]" is not accurate. Zuko didn't challenge Azula to an Agni Kai for the Fire Lord title or throne. He went there with Katara to take her down. It just so happened that Azula was in the middle of her self-coronation. Zuko didn't even know that Ozai had given up his Fire Lord title and had self-proclaimed Phoenix King. For all he knew, Ozai was the Fire Lord, so he could not fight Azula for a title held by someone else. Moreover, Zuko didn't become Fire Lord because Azula was defeated, he became so because Ozai was de-powered and incarcerated. So technically, they were not fighting over anything. ― Thailog 21:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand, "Comet Enhanced Agni Kai" - this was during Sozin's Comet, when so many people were Comet Enhanced Firebending. The whole point in this was to stop ambiguities on the site which is the majority of our page's names. The Flash {talk} 22:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but this page is not about Comet Enhanced Firebending, it's about the Agni Kai, which is the only Comet Enhanced one in the series. ― Thailog 22:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
While Zuko didn't challenging Azula to an Agni Kai for the position, that's what it ended up being, and while Zuko didn't know that Ozai had relinquished the post, I think that upon seeing a Fire Sage about to put the five pronged headpiece, the Fire Lord's headpiece, in Azula's head, in the coronation Plaza, saying in a high voice "I now crown you Fire Lord..." I think that's a bit telling. It doesn't matter if it wasn't intended as a fight for the title, it ended up being. Plus, remember that Iroh told Zuko that he was the one who had to rise to the throne, so it wasn't something out of the blue, it's something that had to happen. Comet Enhanced Agni Kai leaves out the political importance of that fight, and as someone mentioned a while ago, it sounds more like a type of Agni Kai rather than a significant duel between two specific firebenders. I would even say that "Zuko and Azula's Agni Kai" would be a better title instead of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
But this Agni Kai does not have any political importance. If Zuko hadn't fight Azula he would have become Fire Lord anyway after the end of the War, because 1) he's the rightful heir of the throne, 2) Azula wouldn't have challenged him if she knew Ozai had been defeated (and de-powered), 3) even if she had, and ended up defeated Zuko, someone else would step up and defeat her. "Agni Kai for [Something]" places too much weight on the duel as a means to an end, while in reality Zuko would become Fire Lord regardless of it or its outcome. ― Thailog 09:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
"Agni Kai in the Fire Nation Capital" would fit better than "Comet Enhanced Agni Kai" in my opinion - it's just way to ambiguous. The Flash {talk} 15:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
But that was voted out, so please vote on the most accurate name of the two remaining options. And "Agni Kai in the Fire Nation Capital" is no less "ambiguous" than the former. There was only one Comet Enhanced Agni Kai, so I fail to see how is that going to confuse people. ― Thailog 16:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
It has political importance, you're right when you say how things would have happened, but the article is about how it happened, not about how it would have happened. Zuko would have become Fire Lord, but the way things happened, he fought for it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi it's me Piandao and Scooby!, aka Mr Contraversial. Here are my thoughts for your consideration...

I see it as Avatar v Fire Lord: The.... Rematch/Revenge/Vendetta etc
in the spirit of the previous climatic and epic finale between Roku and Sozin

I came to a conclusion the first time I read this (one of the first I read when I came to this wiki) - It is not an AK. It is not an even match between two Firebenders (one is an Avatar, one has enhancement from a comet event, the handicapping for balance is to difficult to weight). Even if it is an AK(there will be more, by tradition alone), it is not the last. Aang defeated Ozai by taking away Firebending using Energybending - so not an even match by this Wiki's description on the AK page

  • AK for the Whatever... does not work. Apart from the fact that Aang was not after a crown or throne (more of a dethrone) A real AK is for pride and honor etc - the opposite of Aang's beliefs
  • AK last/final and similar ... not true, there will/may be more.
  • the AK/duel was climatic and an epic finale relating to the reign of FL Ozai

It was not for or over anything more than what it simply is - Winner takes all (or looser looses all in fact)! It was a duel between Aang and Ozai or Avatar and Fire Lord, it was Aang's way of revenge (for the Airbender Genecide) and the defeat of a mortal enemy who had sworn to kill the last Airbender. It was Ozai's last act/s as Fire Lord, Usurper of power, Firebender etc. It was Ozai's fianle!

My conclusion: There are many great titles to be had none fit so far (least of all the enhancement theory). I can think of a hundered, starting with Avatar v Fire Lord: The Rematch or Anng v Ozai: The Vendetta :) Piandao and Scooby! 14:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


Umm..Piandao, I hope you are aware that this is actually Azula vs Zuko, not Ozai vs Aang, did you read the article? --avatar- Talk 15:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, not the Wulong Forest one. The Flash {talk} 15:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Blushes, coz he was thinking of Wulong (obviousy). But will not edit it out. Still not final and still not AK if Katara is involved/included, more of an intervention by her. Lets make that a mute pointless remark by me.. :)
The titles are not the best so far... thinking along the lines of Anime Battle Royal! Some sort of show down - winner takes all. Have to get back on that. Please don't do the enhancement title - it's cheesy IMO Piandao and Scooby!

Sorry, but it looks like the Enhancement one is going to win anyway. Mwahahahahah. :P Vaznock - Talk 17:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't get it Vaznock. Why the mocking laugh? Somehow I bring out the worst in you, or am taking it the wrong way, so I finally give up - official! Piandao and Scooby!

I was kidding, trying to joke around, not mock you. I'll try to remember not to joke around with you anymore. :( Vaznock - Talk 19:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Voting

Keep the current name (Final Agni Kai)

  1. AirWaterEarthFire 10:45 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Agni Kai for the Throne

  1. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. Kai - Talk 21:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Agni Kai for the Crown

  1. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. Joey aa 00:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC) (Best in my opinion, least ambiguous, yet completely correct)
  3. - Dcasawang1 - Talk 02:42, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Agni Kai in the Fire Nation Capital

  1. The Flash {talk} 20:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Comet Enhanced Agni Kai

  1. Thailog 12:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. Vaznock - Talk - Makes the most sense.
  3. Puragus Talk 01:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Makes sense, only comet-enhanced Agni Kai in the series

Last Agni Kai

  1. - Dcasawang1 - Talk 21:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Voting (Second Round)

Agni Kai for the Crown

  1. Zukofan - Talk 05:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  2. Joey aa 06:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  3. Kai - Talk 14:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  4. The Flash {talk} 22:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  5. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Comet Enhanced Agni Kai

  1. Zukofan - Talk 06:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  2. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 08:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  3. Thailog 08:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  4. Vaznock - Talk
  5. Puragus Talk 15:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  6. Dcasawang1 - Talk 23:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

New images

Okay, I am not voting for new names right now, but here is another proposal I have. Does anyone think we should add to the aftermath section a picture of Zuko becoming Fire Lord or a still from Azula's crying fit? Those would show the true aftermath of this battle. Anyone agree?Fire Eater 00:14, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, as that might would up the article with images. Vaznock - Talk 00:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

If we took out the image of Azula shooting lightning at Katara, then moved the image of Azula frozin in Ice up, we could have it without increasing the page #. Puragus Talk 00:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

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