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An anonymous contributor
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  • Thanks for allowing it to be changed I owe you one

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • To avoid an edit war, since I still strongly disagree with your notion that making the distinction makes it more unclear when the very reason I changed it in the first place was because it currently is confusing and unclear.

    For example, seeing that Rangi was listed as a deceased character confused me, as she's a Kyoshi novel character, which thus firstly struck me as being a major spoiler, before thinking indeed "right, currently timeline". If I already wondered about, what will a user with less knowledge about the workings of the wiki say about it? The easy solution is to just make the distinction per show/book from where we know the character from. That also instantly gives the additional added value that you from where those characters came from. I could agree with the notion that it's too OOU (although we use it on the bending pages as well), but then I would counter that we can just easily put some dates then, because being "notable" by itself is also very subjective and time-bound.

    Also, if you throw them all together, we basically need to list everyone, save for the TLoK characters, as dead, which makes it a very redundant thing to do.

    So if we want to keep those lists clear logical, we should either insert a distinction to indicate in which time period a certain character is considered to be deceased or we should just do away with the deceased indication altogether.

    Another bonus to have the distinction per time period is that it allows you to indicate character movements. Take Aang for example, he's a notable Southern Air Temple figure in ATLA but also a notable Republic City in TLoK. You and I know that because we know the series by heart and know how those pages word. Other people do not, which is confusing.

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    • Simply put, I feel differently; for me, seeing characters listed several times, not to mention characters who lived at the same time split into different sections (Kyoshi's daughter Koko, for example, who lived during Kyoshi's time, but is not listed in the novel section as she was born after the novels - yet stll hundreds of years before ATLA) seems extremely odd and IMO confusing. I see your point, but it is probably an issue of perception and thus subjective.

      I also think that people moving from one place to another is not an issue at all. Today, many people have several areas they regard as homes or are otherwise attached to. In the Avatar universe, the same is true: Kyoshi herself was not born on Kyoshi Island, and neither was Jianzhu, yet both regarded it as their home. The same is true about Aang and others such as Katara: Katara spent much of her adult life away from the South Pole, and clearly saw Air Temple Island as her home, yet always remained attached to the Southern Tribe, even spending her later years there. To list Aang as person of the Southern Temple in ATLA, but as Republic City citizen in LOK would downplay these dual loyalities and attachements, and I think that we shouldn't do this.

      Other than the issue in regards of people being listed as deceased, unified in-universe lists seem to have worked for the past years; I feel that they should remain as they are - except extremely long lists (such as with benders).

      In fact, however, I strongly agree with removing the deceased indication from the lists. Since Lao Ge and some other characters such as Tienhai have appeared who have showcased that immortality is possible and mortality can be fluid in the Avatar universe, these indications have become flawed anyway (how should one list Iroh or the Painted Lady, for example? They are not dead in the truest sense). In addition, we might get more novels / comics about past Avatars in the future which would bring even more confusion to the lists.

      In addition, as you brought "notability" up: We should probably discuss who is "notable" in regards to the nation articles; for example, the list of characters on the Earth Kingdom article is extremely arbitrary. We should clarify whether "major" characters in the shows, novels, and comics should be listed or characters who were important in-universe. As an example: The 46th Earth King is an extremely minor character in the shows, yet very important for the Earth Kingdom's history.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • Hey DFT!

    I noticed you removed the part about Iroh being named after "Uncle" Iroh because it's unconfirmed, however wouldn't you think that something like that doesn't need to be specifically "confirmed" to be true? Voiced by Dante Basco, named Iroh, the way they revealed his name the first time we saw him was a pretty big reveal. Also, HoT mentioned on the Discord that Bryan Konietzko referred to him as "Iroh the Younger" which may be considered confirmation as well.

    What do you think?

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    • I know it seems obvious, but it matters that we have no source outright confirming it. For example, everyone always just believed that Avatar Kyoshi was born on the later Kyoshi Island - it was a natural conclusion, so it was included on the wiki for years. But no source actually stated that she had been born there - only that it had been her home for much of her life. As it turned out, Rise of Kyoshi revealed that it was completely wrong.

      These issues crop up now and then. I know that it feels annoying, but as the Kyoshi example showcases, we cannot just assume something because all evidence seems to indicate it. We have to get a canon source.

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    • there was always a source. The guy who said she was 400 years old in like the fourth episode of the first series said 400 years ago she was born on this island.

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    • Here, I made a war room thread regarding this because I think overall its a good convo to have https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_Wiki:War_Room/Source_regarding_Iroh_and_Iroh

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • Hey there DFT! First of all, I hope you're doing well! Secondly, I saw you added locations of Zigan and Hujiang, and wanted to quickly point out that I believe there might be a mistake on the map given with the B&N edition. Though it is possible that Zigan isn't a part of the Eastern Provinces, or the Provinces is weridly not in the east, the book very clearly says that Hujiang is in the Taihua Mountains and the mountains are located in south of Ba Sing Se. I don't have the book with me right now, but if I remember correctly there was even an entire passage about the mountains, saying how it protected Ba Sing Se from the armies coming from south. There's even a part in the book where the group get pretty close to the walls of Ba Sing Se while going from Hujiang to Zigan, which wouldn't be possible according to this map. What are your thoughts about it, and if you agree which location should we use?

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  • I swear I'm not stalking you ;-p Another question: do you have a source for this edit? Save from starting from the notion that Kuei is 25 in ATLA, as was stated on his article? We're trying to track down the source of that number, without any tangible results thus far.

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    • Oh my, an edit from 2012 ^^.

      No, I fear not. If I had a source at the time, I do not remember it. The lost lore website confirms that Kuei came to power at four, but does not state his age in 100 AG.

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    • Ah, too bad (though not surprising you don't really remember :-p). Since no one seems to know where him being 25 comes from, I guess we better remove it.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • In regards to this, especially the note about the killing in self-defense, is that literally stated or is that your take on the matter? As we know Gyatso has killed and Aang didn't shy away from him.

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    • Well, Jinpa says: "You see, it's customary to maintain a level of separation between those who've taken a life, directly or indirectly, and those who have remained spiritually pure." Kyoshi reflects that Kelsang saved the lives of countless villagers by killing pirates, yet was treated as unclean.

      I believe that self-defense is also included due to the "directly or indirectly" line. Might be a stretch. Anyway, one should also not forget that about three hundred years passed between Kyoshi's early life and Gyatso's time. Philosophies change. In fact, the novel's chapter 1 mentions that the Air Nomads had become extremely detached from the world by Kyoshi's time. Jinpa was also treated as a oddity among his peers due to him managing the temple and its economy instead of focusing on enlightenment. By Aang's time, the Air Nomads actually appear to have taken greater interest in world affairs and non-spirtual matters.

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    • Indirectly killing someone could also be not helping someone in need when you know you can and your inactivity will result in their death (like in modern times not calling an ambulance for someone who's been beaten to near death). So I do think dragging self-defense into that may be too much of an assumption. Self-defense nearly always changes things.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • I did this, but I reckon I should talk to you first about this, since you're really on top of the Avatar history. In short, do we have evidence that the current ruling family dates back to the very beginning? I'm getting the vague feeling that Smoke and Shadow delves more into that, but I've only skimmed that graphic novel. Can you shed some light on this? Please and thank you!

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    • Smoke and Shadow is somewhat vague on the issue, as it states that the Fire Lords before Sozin were Zuko's ancestors, while also telling us that the current royal family (including Zuko) know very little about the Fire Lords before Sozin. What one could read from The Shadow of Kyoshi has confirmed that the Fire Nation's noble families being descendants of the Fire Islands' warlords and has hinted that the royal family is descended from the first Fire Lord.

      However! Both The Shadow of Kyoshi and other media have also stated that there were different dynasties and numerous conflicts within the Fire Nation and the royal family (In fact, TSoK's chapter 5 more or less states that Chaeryu was Zoryu's direct predecessor, yet Zoryu seems to regard Chaeryu not as close relative in the novel's epilogue).

      The situation is probably similar to that of the British Royal Family: Its current dynasty, House Windsor, officially started in 1917. Yet its current head, Queen Elizabeth II, is the direct descendant to the rulers of Wessex of pre-1000. Almost all dynasties ruling Britain were, strictly speaking, part of the same family. Thus, the most likely scenario is that both Zuko as well as Zoryu are descendants of the first Fire Lord and part of the same family. However, Zoryu might not be Zuko's ancestor and be instead part of a different dynasty. Overall, the Kyoshi-era Fire Lords should be treated as "distant relatives".

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    • So in conclusion: it's a mess ^^".

      Thanks for the overview though!

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • Hey DFT, could you share a link to your source for the new TRoS preview? The Amazon one only covers the prologue, first chapter, and epilogue. Kassilon mentioned that someone found a workaround to get the preview to extend to chapter 5, although it generally doesn't show up. If that is the case though, everything taken from chapters beyond the prologue, the first chapter, and the epilogue is considered a leak and should be immediately removed from the wiki.

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    • Oh no, I'm totally with you on that!! I was speaking about Amazon putting out so much content before the actual release, I wasn't referring to the story itself. ^^"

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    • Korra2000: Oh no, one could use the same method as described above to read up to chapter 5 in the preview for Rise of Kyoshi.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • Was there any indication that the company itself would make a reappearance, and not just the members? If their appearance is as part of Kyoshi's Team Avatar, then I would not consider that an appearance of the company.

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    • From what I understand, the Flying Opera Company is Kyoshi's Team Avatar. All remaining members serve as her guardians and bending teachers, and she has outright stated in the novel's last chapter that she will remain a daofei as well as stay true to her vows to the Flying Opera Company, meaning that the group remains active.

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    • Ahh yes, I remember that last point now. I think that is good enough to keep it as is then. It is only a minor change if needed when the book releases.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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  • Hey DFT, I noticed that you recently created some categories, such as the Daofei, pirates, and organized crime. However, per our own Avatar Wiki:Categorization policy, all new category creations should be subjected to a War Room discussion to gauge its necessity. Although your suggestions would most likely have been accepted anyway, it is still a rule that should be followed by everyone.

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