Forum:Voice Actor Pages

Forums: War Room → Voice Actor Pages

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I noticed that the Voice Actor page format is inconsistent, and I proposed a new format, one that isn't a jumbled regurgitation of Wikipedia. I will make sure that all Voice Actor pages have the infobox. The first thing on the page will be the infobox. Next is the introductory pagraph from Wikipedia, stripped of references, most internal linking ("most" being in case of Avatar mention such as for Dante, Zach, and others,) and all external linking. If an intro paragraph is bulky with notable roles, split the paragraph appropriately. Finally, the Avatar-related paragraph, which mentions the characters, the episode that the character appeared or debuted in, and the character's purpose, most evident in Keone Young's page. Basco's page is special, as there is an additional paragraph too notable to be considered trivia, relating his Avatar role with his American Dragon role with cast connections and parallels.

I have already proposed and implemented the format on some pages, and I was told to bring it here for most discussion. My prime example is Dante Basco's page [1] I want to remind you that this is not Wikipedia and the pages should be Avatar-centric, and not be filled with Wikipedia-copied fluff--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 21:39, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

I'm the one who came up with the voice actor pages' format. The reason none of the major actors' pages -- Eisen, Whitman, DeSena, Flowers, Basco, and the rest -- are in that format is because I have been spending since mid-February making sure the lesser lights have their own pages first. I've about a half-dozen to go, then I was going to go back and edit the thirty-odd pages that were there already. The layout was come up after some consideration of what users of this wiki might want, which went something like this (using Grey DeLisle as an example):

How many times and in what episodes does she voice Azula in the series (19 in total)? What other characters has she done in the series? Actress Katara, Kya(!), and Ta Min plus a few unidentified additional voice credits. What other works has she credit for (over 260 titles, as it turns out)? Can you tell me something about her life? The answer for the last is 'Yes' for Miss Delisle, not so much for some of the others. Some have no information on their always-present IMDb page, no site of their own, and a minimal Wikipedia page with scarcely more than a list of credits on it, if there's any page on Wikipedia at all.

Thus, this being an Avatar: the Last Airbender wiki, besides the info box at the right the top of the page starts with the Avatar credits, puts their other work next, and the text paragraphs last. That way the text, which can be plentiful, sparse, or none at all, doesn't make the layout look different, depending. Unless their credits are really minimal, this has the advantage of getting the long text lines below the info box where they aren't squeezed so much.

As far as using Wikipedia 'fluff' is concerned:

I was a month gathering the Avatar credits, and collecting the IMDb and Wiki page URLs for making the links.
It was decided just the credits results in not much of a page; some biographical information is needed, if it can be found.
Wikipedia offers a Creative Commons license; you can use their text freely so long as you attribute it properly. Thus there are no copyright worries.
As it is, putting the information onto the actors' pages, with the gleaning of their other works picking things I think Avatar fans will find interesting, checking the page for typos and formatting errors, trimming (in some cases) the Wiki text and pasting it in the bottom, posting the page, and updating the Voice Actors page is taking thirty to fifty minutes apiece. With a hundred twenty-plus pages to do I don't have the time or the inclination to change the Wiki paragraphs into sparkling prose of my own invention.

Let the debates begin. DesertDog (talk) 00:54, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think that the format you have come up with is a good one, DesertDog. I have edited voice actor pages myself on some occasions, but I also think making sure they all have their own page to begin with is a priority over fixing the details, which can be made uniform as time goes on. This is Avatar Wiki so of course the relevant part about that is given precedence. But a short bio and other well-known credits should be included as well and Wikipedia is an okay place to look for it.

Overall, I have not seen any problems with the voice actors project and I support moving forward with the status quo of how its done. --AvatarRokusGhost

06:47, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think the main problem here is that without proposing or discussing a new format, you went ahead and implemented it on various voice actor pages. If you'd proposed it to the community first, it would have been reasonably better. And as per DesertDog, Wikipedia's information is available for other wikia use. It isn't illegal. JaidynM (Talk) - (Blog) 07:42, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, implementing a new format without making a proposal is acceptable, but if it is reverted later in good faith, then it should be brought to the table for discussion rather than thrown up again. :) The 888th Avatar (talk) 11:32, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

(in reference to ARG's comment) But it shouldn't be to the point where everything else is a majority of the page. That's why I propose only the introductory paragraph from Wikipedia is used, so we at least get a taste of other work

(in reference to Jaidyn's comment) Except less is not more in this case. We should be focusing on Avatar stuff, and not everything else--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 12:40, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Jack — I've moved your comments to the bottom with some added notes (in grey) about whose comment you were referring to. Our practice on Avatar Wiki is to always reply at the bottom of a discussion thread, so that chronological flow is maintained. The 888th Avatar (talk) 13:07, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense. I just figured my replies to the respective people would go under what I was replying to--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 13:43, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

A small amount of bio information is fine. I have seen the voice actor pages and I don't remember any where that part of the content went overboard. --AvatarRokusGhost 15:06, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Dante Basco, Mae Whitman, Mark Hamill--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 15:09, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Of those three, I agree that Mar Whitman's should probably be shortened. With the other ones it doesn't seem as drastic. Mark Hamill's is divided into sections and each of those is pretty short. That's the way I saw a lot of the pages for voice actors and I don't find it overbearing. --AvatarRokusGhost

15:15, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

His filmography is humongous. That's why the introductory paragraph should suffice. Besides, my Ozai expansion ept getting reverted until recently--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 15:22, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Everyone here is forgetting a point I made on Jack's blog earlier. According to our goals, we are suppossed to be the "ultimate guide to everything to do with the franchise — inside and outside the universe." These are Avatar Wiki policies, and because of this, they should be followed. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 15:48, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

EVERYTHING OUTSIDE? OK, I'll gladly create a Bill Gates page. His help in the creation of the internet helped create the Avatar wiki--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 15:49, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Now you're just being outlandish. "everything to do with the franchise." Bill Gates may have helped the Internet in whatever way, but his role in Avatar Wiki is irrelevant. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 15:53, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

The Bos - if it is Avatar related, then of course it must be included. But one voice actors' life story isn't really tied to the franchise much. Especially if they were only in an episode or two. --AvatarRokusGhost

15:53, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

(in regards to The Bos) You are clearly twisting pople's words to get your way. Keep in mind, if it wasn't for computer animation, Avatar (technically all three, the third being James Cameron's) wouldn't be possible. Thus, if you want EVERYTHING AVATAR related, then you in effect support a Bill Gates article--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 15:56, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Within reason. You're accusing me of twisting words, but you are trying to say I said something I disagree with entirely. If they had a direct relation (which the policy clearly means) then they should have an article here. If they have an article on the wiki, it should include everything possible that pretains to them. It's simple. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 16:00, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Lemme quote you, "According to our goals, we are suppossed to be the "ultimate guide to everything to do with the franchise — inside and outside the universe." These are Avatar Wiki policies, and because of this, they should be followed." I'm not twisting your words to say something that would support me. You're clearly the lying politician here who is just trying to get a few votes--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 16:06, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

We should have as much information on voice actors as we can, as Bos points out, but this information needs to be tailored to suit the readers and audience of Avatar Wiki. The average reader of this wiki isn't as interested in the life story of the actor as what the person has appeared in (to establish a sense of "who is this person, and where have I seen him/her?"). That's the idea behind DesertDog's layout of having the full filmography listed before additional biographical details are added at the bottom of the page. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:16, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

But to have biographical information at the bottom of the page without Wikipedia's introductory paragraph is not a good way to introduce someone to the subject. That's why all basic outside-Avatar biographical information should be covered with the introduction at the top--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 16:20, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

It's not good for a general-purpose encyclopedia like Wikipedia, yes, but our topic is quite specific and we do have a much smaller target audience. Most of this audience aren't as interested in encyclopedic details of subjects that Wikipedia also covers. If we are to have voice actor pages, and if we want these pages to actually be read by a large number of people, we have to make sure there is enough differentiation from Wikipedia to be a credible alternative. Listing details your average fan (rather than your average academic) would be interested in seems to be the best choice to this end. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:25, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, and nobody wants to hear about every other little thing the actor did. That's what my edits are trying to do. That's why the Mae Whitman, Richard Epcar, Dante Basco (at least people are listening about this one), and Mark Hammill pages should not have been tampered with after I made my trimmings--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 16:41, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but our ideas for this "differentiation" seem to be in conflict. I do believe in having a list of credits, because while that's "trivial" for the academic, it is information the average fan really wants to know. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:50, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

"You're clearly the lying politician here who is just trying to get a few votes" Jack - please refrain from making such personal attacks. Argue your case in a reasonable manner. --AvatarRokusGhost

16:57, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Regarding DeLisle, there are plenty that would be included on that introductory paragraph, but it's too many to list on an Avatar wiki filmography. If you saw my John DiMaggio version, it had (paraphrased to simplicity "He played Actor Iroh and Actor Toph in the episode", which is much bette than creating a whole subsection for one episode title. Hamill is in a similar situation, but in the way that he's been working for about 40-something years, and listing every single credit is just way too much. And I'm only defending myself from The Bos, who has made personal attacks on me.--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:00, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Like what? Your atacks are simply uncalled for. What do you think I'm trying to do here? What do I have to gain by getting this policy changed? I honestly think you need to calm down and reflect on what you say before you press the "Publish button." As for the policy, I think that many voice actors need to have lists of credits. I know that I, for one, have gone through looking for information on voice actors because I was interested. I looked for information on Roku's voice actor, becaues I know I'd heard his voice somewhere else. I think that by bringing all this information together in one place, we can be a more comprehensive encyclopedia for "everything to do with the franchise." --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 17:03, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

You just accused me of having an ulterior motive. I'm just trying to help the wiki--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:05, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

When? Where? I can't seem to find anything that would accusative, yet I've found at least two instances where you've made wild attacks at me. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 17:09, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I quote "What do I have to gain by getting this policy changed?". And by the way, the info would all bve in one place. You clearly do not understand that. You are making this very frustrating--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:12, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

No, you don't seem to understand. How does that constitute me accusing you of something? I was simply defending myself from one of your claims. And, as to your added note, I want all the information in one place, from the past roles in list format, to biographical information. It's part of living up to our goal, and since it's in the policy, I still wonder how this discussion has continued. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 17:15, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and part of the policy is "Everyone is encouraged to help and add everything they know.". You were not encouraging, you were oppresing. Even when I added information, you all repeatedly took it off without saying why. You can't pick and choose which parts of the policy you follow. And when you said "I was simply defending myself from one of your claims", my claim was that you were twisting my words. I was only defending myself, and you're making me loo like the attacker. You are clearly trying to provoke something none of you would want--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:22, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get any reactions. I'm trying to engage in an intellectual discussion, and you seem to be too focused on attacks. We've already told you, wait until people agree on the changes, that means more than 2. Since the community had not consented, there was no reason for you to have added the information in the first place, so I needed no reason to remove it. I don't pick and choose when I follow the policy; I have always made sure to make sure the wiki is as comprehensive as it can be. Going to your talk page, we can see that you always attack first, so that no one can even get in a full discussion before you get off topic, as now. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 17:27, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not off-topic. My way makes it simple and comprehensive. It's called getting to the point. It's clear that the VA pages are too unorganized, as you've all admitted. They're all either too inactive or they're intimidated by you, that's why they're not responding--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:31, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'll agree that some of the VA pages are disorganized. And, ergo, we arrive on this page. Where did you get the idea that people aren't responding because I've intimidated them? The entire commmunity isn't active at this time of day, as many of the American are in school and those in other parts of the world are asleep. You say you're not going off topic, but you seem to always bring up something that is irrelevant. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 17:35, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I only bring it up because you did first. You telling me I cant express my own feelings? BTW, it's spring break in a lot of America--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:37, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Again, you go putting words into other people's mouths. I know it's spring break, it's why I'm able to be here too. But, we're suppossed to have civilized discussions, so I'm stopping the personal arguments now. I suggest you do the same. --I'm The Bos - ^{Talk - Guardian} 17:42, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't start it. I'm only putting the blame where it belongs, and now I will refrain from personals--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:44, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Attempting to get back to the topic at hand here...I like the current suggested layout enacted by DesertDog as stated by 888. The reason is because it focuses immediately upon what Avatar role(s) the voice actor had a part in. It is interested to note the varying characters some actors voiced, while I also find it interesting to see what outside work some characters had performed - that are pruned and chosen for what may be more relevant or interesting to members here. Mae Whitman is an example; she's had a part in numerous shows, movies, etc that are interesting and have been brought up by other users too - Surprised that the actor actually had a role in 'x'. As such, it is accomplishing the goal of having relevant information on the topic of the Voice Actor who was involved in the production of Avatar.

Another benefit to this type of layout is, as DD suggested, the infobox does squeeze paragraph text together especially depending on if a picture is involved. By allowing the headings and credits to be listed first, followed by a short, to the point summary of additional paragraph detail, it keeps a similar layout across multiple actor pages. It also solves the problem of some actors that simply do not have other source-able information - as if the additional information came first and no such detail could be found, it would cause that page to have a much different look and feel than other similar Voice Actor pages. Vulmen (talk • contribs) 21:21, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

So you're saying that none of my suggestions were good? Keep in mind that in my version, major VAs aside, I give each VA's character(s) a small description of what the character's purpose is for the episode (series for recurring)--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 22:15, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think we may have a compromise, as showin in J.K. Simmons. It has my elements, plus a more detailed description than just the name of the character they play. Then, we have the filmography you're insistent on keeping. I still say that Eisen should not have a filmography listing, as it is a complete repetition of his opening paragraph--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 22:47, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. What you've done is simply beefed up the introduction area of the page with some information that is already on the page. What's the point of repeating some information when the reader can scroll down and read the filmography? And I also think it clutters up the page a bit. JaidynM (Talk) - (Blog) 22:22, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

No, you added filmography with information already on the page. The filmography fluffs the page, not an introduction--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 13:31, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Are we getting close to a consensus here? I'm done with adding pages and am ready to edit the 41 pages that were already on the site. No point in doing something that would need to be redone later. As far as other credit listings are concerned, as I said earlier I tried to choose ones that would be of interest to the community. I set an arbitrary limit of six because that looked to be about the right length on the page, and also was about the limit of my patience in digging the things up. For the criteria:

TV work I favored regular roles or recurrent appearances. 40 credits on some obscure program outscored one on "Family Guy".
Filmography I generally just worked from newest to oldest but if there were two close to each other, one rated at 3.6 and the other at 5.8, I'd pick the higher rated film.
Other Credits Virtually all are video games with a handful of short subjects. I figured Shorts are virtually impossible to track down. Since I don't play VGs much (and those mostly RTSs) I have nor real clue as to which are good and which bad, so I went with how many other Avatar actors they had. Some of them had so many it was alike old home week. I swear Final Fantasy XIII had every voice actor in Los Angeles as a Cocoon Inhabitant, whatever that is.

Oh, and by the way, JPF, the nation field in the Voice Actor box template was copied from the Character template and merely changes the color of the box. Fire makes it red, Air yellow, Earth green, Water blue, Spirit purple, and Neutral gray. Leaving it blank is the Avatar default (brown); there may be others I haven't found.

I wish you'd stop delinking the other credits that are already on the site. Having the just the name makes the whole thing less useful. DesertDog (talk) 17:48, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about the nation thing, but the filmography that I had didn't just include Family Guy, but that bulk of movie stuff I kept. I also expanded on her American Dragon work being a "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon"-like situation with Dante Basco. And regarding the delinking, can they at least link to Wikipedia instead?--Jack's Posse Fic (talk • contribs) 17:59, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Even for a lately-inactive user like myself, I prefer having an extended version of Brian George as the standard format (I believe it is DesertDog's layout, no?). By extended I mean having an introductory paragraph, a brief intro like the one seen in Zach Tyler Eisen's. I find pages such as Crawford's simply uninteresting and messy to look at. It shows laziness and apathetically lacking in information, which I believe this wiki, along with it's users are not. Instead, it should be well-organized and well stocked with anything related to the voice actor, even if it's a little off the Avatar universe, it's still an overall fun read (like Vulmen said). In a nutshell, the page will:

Start off with a infobox(Avatar wiki default brown), followed by,

A short intro paragraph (As seen in Zach's page).
Biographical Information Detailing the voice actor's personal life, career etc.
Avatar: The Last Airbender credits Showing which role/s did the actor voice in A:TLA
Selected other credits Listing his/her work in Television series, Films and also Video Games (if there are any), or a.k.a. Television work, Filmography & Other Credits. And as DD himself stated, the list should only include noteworthy and reoccurring roles, and not some obscurely minor roles. AvaFan MsgMe 06:43, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the Brian George page is in my format, credits on top. Zach Tyler Eisen's page I have not touched; that's why the credits there just say he played Aang, with no list of the episodes he is in, and have no links to the other works' IMDb pages, as does George's. Crawford Wilson I have not touched, either; there are no lists of credits at all there.

Before starting this project, I did put some thought into the way the page should be laid out. I too, was thinking at first that the text should be on top, but as I was going through the names collecting information, actor after actor was coming up blank; no text would be possible. Take a look at the page for Roberta Farkas or for an even more extreme example, Kevin Ng. What text would you propose to put at the top of their pages. Go ahead and Google their names as I did and tell me what you come up with. Even for those with some text, well, do you really want to put in the most important position on the page the crap text Ben Diskin has?

Mulling it over, I tried to imagine the thought processes of a typical visitor to this site. I pictured them for the most part saying to themselves, "That voice sounds awesome. I wonder what else he's done," before, "I wonder how many kids he has." This being an Avatar site, the Avatar credits go on top – there aren't usually more than a couple anyway. The other credits go next, but only a selection to keep the length reasonable. Ol' George has nearly 200 credits, after all, and a few actors even more than that. Lastly is the bio information where the viewer can discover that she also has an extensive stage career, or he's married to one of the other actors on the site.

As I alluded to above, this also has the dual advantage of keeping the pages more uniform – everybody's got an Avatar credit, after all – and keeping short titles in the area squeezed down by the info box on the right. DesertDog (talk) 17:35, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

I see... But wouldn't that contribute to the current issue of inconsistency? I mean, not every voice actor has a lengthy bio lying around the internet that we can use. Some has it, whilst minor insignificant voice actors/actresses are just barely acknowledged, like you said before. So... what should we have in their biography section if it is to be included? AvaFan MsgMe 01:12, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Finally, I'm back online. Be sure you keep your virus checker up to date, boys and girls, and look both ways before crossing the street.

In a way, AvaFan you're making my point. Take a look at the page for James Hong, edited last by N 3rd Street. It's a magnificent job and I complimented him on it; I wish all the actors' pages could look that way. Compare that to the page for Roberta Farkas. Not much to her page; there's just not anything easy to find that I have come across so it's unlikely to get anything added to it. Now take a look at James Hong's page in my sandbox with the credits on top, as I have been advocating. Between the real Hong page and Farkas' page, and the sandbox Hong page and Farkas' which looks more consistent? DesertDog (talk) 02:25, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

I don't quite get your earlier ideas for the format, but I certainly see it now! Your sandbox page for James Hong is certainly the tidier one. Not to mention it's flexible too, anyone can add additional info at the bottom if they have any, promoting consistency in the process. In other words, Yes, I totally side with your layout. Ermm, one tiny little request here, perhaps we could separate the introductory paragraph and the credits with a new heading? AvaFan MsgMe 04:25, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

So are we going with credits first, bio last? That's fine with me. I just edited Clancy Brown's page to include DesertDog's credits template. I figure this summer I'll help chip away at the voice actor pages to get them more consistent and professional-looking. For Clancy, since he has A TON of credits, I picked out a few of his bigger movie and video game roles to include on his page. For his TV work (which most substantially comprises his career), I chose series he make frequent recurring appearances in--usually around 13 or more episodes. N 3rd Street (talk • contribs) 19:25, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what I did for the others, 3rd, pick six previous credits in each category. Nothing magic about that number; it was about the limit of my patience working on a particular page.

I'm thinking we need to vote now. DesertDog (talk) 12:06, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

^Yes let's vote! One final concern: I edited Jennifer Hale's page recently and somebody really went all out on listing her credits. I'm certainly not going to link them all to IMDb, and I suppose if anything the lists should be trimmed down just a few in each category. I really hope we can get the VA page standard nailed down. We need one--desperately. N 3rd Street (talk • contribs) 03:49, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Crap. I edited this page yesterday, but must have forgotten to publish. I've started redoing the existing VA credits to (more or less) the format we have agreed upon. Since no one's voted on the final I've done the pages for André Sogliuzzo and Clancy Brown with a bit of text at the top, then the credits, then the rest of the text under that. And yes, N 3rd, Hale's page looks pretty cluttered with all those unlinked credits. I'll trim them down and link 'em when I get to her page. DesertDog (talk) 13:36, May 14, 2011 (UTC)