All posts by Dr. Dishonor
@Bastion2.0 "any insults toward bolin weren't annoyance, it was commenting at his personality"
You can tell by her tone of voice towards him that she dislikes him. Also if you admit that you think that Toph find's Bolin's personality to be too talkative already then idk why she would want him to keep doing that even more since telling him about her experiences with lavabending would make him keep blabbering and asking even more questions. In beach wars she could have gotten his attention by just talking to him, striking him was totally unnecessary which shows how little she cares about being nice to him.
"But while acknowledging it, you are ignoring that it IS IN FACT a game mechanic and it exists to give players abilities. you cannot conflate game mechanics with show canon especially since show canon is the most credible source, several tiers over the game canon"
I already addressed this twice in my last 2 replies so I'm not gonna bother rewriting it here since you can just reread those. Where the game falls in terms of canonicity would only matter if the game was contradictory to the show which it isn't. For instance the game doesn't outright say she can lavabend nor does the show say that she can't lavabend, all they do is give us hints. Which is part of why my argument from the start was that it's probable but that we can't know for sure until she we see her lavabend or that it's stated that she did it.
"Roku is the avatar. are you kidding? he is an earthbender"
Yes he is obviously an earthbender but the reason he is an earthbender is different than the reason why people of earth kingdom descent are earthbenders. Roku and Kyoshi can use other elements earthbender because they have Raava within them who gives them access to the other elements. Just like how Wan could only use 1 element until Raava entered him which we saw during his fight with Vaatu and which was stated when the lion turtle said "Raava must hold the power for you". Whereas people of earth kingdom descent can use earthbending because they got it from their parent's genes. So if earthbending and thereby lavabending can also be granted by something outside of genetics(Raava) then it obviously isn't purely a genetic trait.
"Which are the two unknown masters? where are you getting that?"
I posted the source 2 replies ago where I said it was on page 211 of the RPG core book here: https://imgur.com/a/hbUhfuf where it says that there are many lavabending masters in the RPG's later eras such as the Korra era. Many usually means at least more than 2 meaning it'd be Bolin + 2 unknown users.
"no I don't think spirit bending or spirit projection are genetic. korra learned spirit bending and there is no reason by spirit-based abilities like spirit projection should be genetic"
Spirit projection with it's 4 users(Jinora + Mangal + at least 2 more unknown users in the Korra era) is far more rare than lavabending with it's 8 users(Ghazan + Sun + Bolin + Kyoshi + Roku + Szeto + 2 unknown Korra era users). So if you think lavabending must be genetic just because it is rare then it would be inconsistent to think that techniques that are even rarer than lavabending aren't also genetic. Yes Korra trained her spiritbending after she unlocked it but the reason for why she was able to unlock it is never explained. So we don't know if only people who have the right genetics can unlock it or not which would be the most likely possibility if we were to follow your reasoning that rare techniques must be rare due to genetics.
"You can only use stress to unlock something if the student already has the hidden ability lurking inside. Otherwise, no amount of stress would awaken it."
I agree that no amount of stress will unlock bending for someone who has no aptitude for a certain bending subclass since that is stated in the rpg game and shown to us in the show but we just disagree on why they lack that aptitude. You apparently think they lack the aptitude because they lack the genes for it whereas I think they lack the aptitude because they aren't skilled enough. For instance it could just be that the reason only 1 out of a 100 earthbenders has the aptitude for metalbending is because they aren't skilled enough to detect the tiny earth particles in the metal similar to how most earthbenders aren't skilled enough to detect vibrations in the earth to seismic sense. Back when Combustion Man was the only combustionbender in the world we didn't automatically assume that it was because of genetics just because it was rare. Lavabending in it's current state would be in a similar position to those early days before we knew the details of combustionbending. In that case we knew that it was rare but we didn't know why CM had the latent potential that allowed them to unlock it, it could have been because CM has special genes or because he underwent rigorous training or because it was given to him by a spirit or whatever other reason. It would have been just as faulty to assume that other specialized skills like combustionbending are determined by genes just because they're rare as it would be to assume lavabending is genetic.
"That was not metalbending. that was the meteor bracelet reacting to them in a moment of heightened emotion"
Is the meteor bracelet not made of metal? How else is it moving if not for metalbending? Does bending in anger by accident not count as bending for some reason? Does this mean that Katara wasn't technically bending when she broke the iceberg by accident? Does heightened emotion not trigger metalbending?
"there is a clear difference between that and bolin instantly having full control over lavabending"
The only difference is that Bolin only ever lavabent under heightened emotion once whereas Toph's students metalbent via emotion unknowingly and then did it again knowingly vs the firebenders. Once they unlocked it under duress from the firebenders they also had full control of the metal just like Bolin did.
"its the same deal as aang is already a bender of all 4 elements but he has to train to do them at will"
It's mostly the same as Aang earthbending under duress but there is 1 difference since they were able to metalbend the bracelet when they got mad before they ever received any training whereas Aang was never able to earthbend by accident prior to receiving training.
"Bolin didn't use skill to do it. if it were skill based, there would be more people doing it still."
This claim only works if the majority of earthbenders are not as skilled as Bolin which you'd need to prove.
"I can bet there are hundreds of other highly skilled earthbenders all throughout the world"
The idea that there are other earthbenders in TLOK as good as Bolin is contradicted here on the old nick website where Bolin is stated to be one of the world's greatest benders:
https://www.tumblr.com/tlok-lore-archive/618928771655991296/locations-pro-bending-arena which would put him above most other earthbenders, and we know he is even above all of these other great pro-benders since he made it to the championship finals twice, winning the second time and only losing the first time because his opponents cheated. Obviously there are other benders who are greater than him who already won against him like Ghazan, Ming-hua, Unalaq, etc. But that doesn't mean that Mako and Bolin are suddenly no longer amongst the best benders just because they have lost fights. All it does is add all those characters who beat them into that top category as well. So once again you'd have to prove that hundreds of earthbenders are on Bolin's skill level instead of just "betting" that they are.
"this "skilled bender" point is destroyed when we consisder sun who was a novice earthbender yet could still use lavabending."
Where is it stated that Sun was a novice earthbender? That's never mentioned in the comic or rpg as far as I know.
They can both do it just by different methods. It used to be the case that airbenders could only move around pre-existing clouds like how Yangchen did here with airbending: https://imgur.com/a/MnEMhun whereas only waterbenders could create them outright which is stated in avatar extras here: https://imgur.com/a/DuiXGrE and shown in scenes like the day of black sun where the swampbenders make fog, and described here in the rpg game: https://imgur.com/a/cgHUipn However the idea that only waterbenders can create clouds was retconned in the Rise of Kyoshi where it's stated that Kelsang can create a hurricane: https://imgur.com/a/jRUZiu1
"You did. she never calls him a dipstick"
Either you're lying or just misremembering but either way she calls him that in the scene where she first meets him here at the 3:06 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YH8doUBNFQ Also literally her first reaction to him when she meets him is asking "what's up with him" in an annoyed tone which is even more evidence that she's annoyed by him.
"that is the only scene she shows any sort of "annoyance" with bolin"
There's at least 3 scenes showing her annoyance, the scene where they first meet, the scene where they part ways, and the scene here in beach wars where she ass blasts him with sand for no reason: https://imgur.com/a/c5LfSBT
"she was irritated by korra because she whined a lot"
And she was irritated by Bolin due to his fanboying and overly friendly mannerisms.
"His raw talent and aptitude led him to quickly master a new technique. it is only saying that he has the ability to master abilities quickly"
Ok so we agree that he mastered lavabending by the time of the RPGs Korra era I guess we just disagree on whether or not it can be unlocked via training.
"the mechanics of a game are still disconnected from the canon. they exist to give the players abilities."
I already addressed this point in my last reply where I went over how the method of training to master techniques is stated to be based off of how techniques are mastered in the show. I agree its a game mechanic but it is a game mechanic that is just straight up copied from the show and corroborated by every specialized technique in the verse being shown to be difficult to obtain, including lavabending, unless you don't consider having lava hurled at you to be a difficult method.
"3 native earthbending lavabenders. thats what I meant obviously."
I'm not exactly sure why them being from the earth kingdom or not matters when it comes to them being able to lavabend. They all still have the skill no matter where they hail from. Come to think of it, the fact that Roku is capable of lavabending in base without the AS pretty blatantly contradicts the idea that lavabending is exclusive to people of earth kingdom and fire nation descent like Bolin or (possibly) Sun since we already know Roku comes from a line of Fire Nation nobles and not Earth Kingdom heritage. And Kyoshi being able to do it in base is even more affirmation since she comes from the union of an airbender from the eastern temple and an earthbender whose family is from Ba Sing Se.
"adding kyoshi that just makes it worse. in 500+ years only 4."
I already presented the statement that there are many lavabenders in the post-comics Korra era which would make it 6 lavabenders of earth kingdom origin at the minimum since Sun + Ghazan + Bolin + Kyoshi + at least 2 unknown masters = 6. Which is a way bigger amount than there are for other specialized techniques like spiritbending or spirit projection. Also you completely dodged my question from my last reply on whether or not you also believe that any other specialized techniques like spiritbending and spirit projection are genetic.
"He trained it to hone it. what I obviously mean is train to achieve such as bloodbending or metalbending. we never see that from lavabending."
Do you disagree that a known earthbending training method to unlock earthbending is to put the student in danger and make them mad? Do you disagree that Toph already knows this training method? Do you disagree that Bolin and Sun lavabent by accident when they got cornered? If you agree with all of that then all Toph(or any other trainer) needs to do is the same thing Aang did to unlock earthbending except replace the boulder with a wave of lava slowly rolling down the hill. It is not that hard to recreate the conditions needed to unlock lavabending in a training environment.
"metalbending can not be done by accident. it has to be obtained through training"
Either you're trying to gaslight me again or you're just misremembering but either way Ho Tun, Penga, and the Dark One all metalbent Toph's meteor bracelet by accident when they got emotional in the promise here: https://imgur.com/a/Th5L7Od and then they did it again by accident when they got emotional and were about to be burnt by firebending here: https://imgur.com/a/N36VhhA
"Its rarity doesn't need to be stated, it is clear. if only 4 people in 500+ years have been able to do it, it is rare. and if it were trainable (trainable to obtain) more people would have it."
I never argued that it wasn't rare, you're attacking yet another strawman. I did argue that it has 8 practitioners rather than 3 but having only 8 still makes it rare. Most people can still not have it even if it is trainable because the training methods are dangerous and because it is highly difficult to learn and most earthbenders aren't as skilled as people like Kyoshi, Bolin, Roku, Ghazan, etc, who are some of the best benders in the verse. If you think that most earthbenders are on their level then you'd have a better case for it being genetic but as it stands so far every earthbender who can purposefully lavabend has been one of the best of the best.
@Bastion2.0 "Toph was not shown to be significantly annoyed by Bolin in LoK"
Then I must have just imagined the scene where she calls him a dipstick after first meeting him, or the scene where she called him a gum-flapper and said "enough" as she tried to get away from his embrace, or the scene in the beach wars comic where she hits him in the ass with sand for no reason, or all the scenes where she was even annoyed by Korra who has a much less irritating personality than Bolin does, or the line in the rpg that says that "Toph eventually found her way to the Foggy Swamp where she embraced the life of a swamp hermit with glee. Finally all to herself, she could do what she wanted, when she wanted, how she wanted and she would’ve happily stayed there if not for the annoying reincarnation of one of her best friends Avatar Aang". The comics, rpg, and the show all make it clear that her current life goal is to enjoy retirement free of annoyances. I agree she is prideful but obviously her desire to avoid annoyances is greater than her pride or else she'd be out doing something to satisfy her ego instead of having her current life goal be retirement.
"its a part of the game's mechanics to acquire abilities. you can't use the rules of the game as applicable in the show/comic canon."
You've got it backwards, the way that skills are gained in the RPG is derived from the show, not the other way around. The idea that skills are derived from training is not an idea that originated in the rpg, it's a mechanic that is being taken from the show and elaborated upon. For instance the rpg states that: "Mastering a new technique is often an important part of your character’s journey; it might prompt them to seek out a teacher and contend with new and difficult challenges. For example, Sokka’s desire to master the sword led him to study under Piandao, a master swordsman from the Fire Nation who challenged the young Sokka to grow considerably in both his sword training and his strategic thinking. Training allows your character to be guided in this journey, mastering new techniques under the eyes of a watchful teacher and mentor". We know learning via training also applies to lavabending since it is stated that Bolin quickly mastered it on his own without even having a teacher help him. On the Republic City Setting Toolkit on page 157 it states that "Bolin’s athleticism, raw talent, and positive attitude have all contributed to his fast learning curve in earthbending and, eventually, lavabending." Meaning he quickly mastered lavabending similarly to how he quickly mastered earthbending which was through training and combat. We know he is a master because it is stated on page 237 of the core book that "The Avatars are all legendary NPCs, as are most of their companions like Rangi, Sokka, and Bolin." combined with the fact that is stated on page 18 of Wan Shi Tong's adventure guide: "Legendary NPCs are very, very capable. They’ve mastered their trainings thoroughly, and they likely have a whole enormous array of different techniques at their disposal. Many of them are also masters of special forms of bending like metalbending and lightningbending, forms they can guide PCs to learn. All of which means that there’s a good chance they’re some of the best teachers the heroes are ever likely to find!" Meaning by the time of the RPG's Korra era which takes place after the comics, Bolin mastered lavabending via training. Not to mention that its also stated that "In general, all advanced techniques—except universal techniques— are tied to a particular training like Airbending or Weapons, and can only be learned by a character who possesses that training." and "Learning techniques without the appropriate training requires a specific move or feature like
the Prodigy’s An Open Mind move that allows you to adapt the specific techniques of a different training to your own" So we know the method for learning new techniques in the rpg is based on how they are learned in the show, and then the rpg goes on to further explain that those methods involve either learning from a master or by adapting other techniques into your style, or by learning it by accident like Katara did with healing. Even if there were no examples of benders learning lavabending via training in the verse, it'd still be the most consistent argument seeing as how literally every other technique in the verse can be learned with training.
"The presence of possible explanations doesn’t make them equally probable. Just because one could speculate lavabending is a secret or taboo doesn’t mean that holds weight without any in-universe support"
I already said in my last reply that obviously none of these explanations(including the genetic eplanation) has evidence aside from the explanation that it is difficult to learn. If every explanation has a probability of 0 then they'd all be equally as likely unless there's a good piece of evidence for one over the other.
"On the other hand, the actual observed pattern—only 3 users in 100 years, no training ever shown, no known teachers—supports rarity by nature, not secrecy or taboo"
For one there are way more than 3 users in the verse. Szeto was capable of lavabending in his flashback in B2E1 which means either he learned it or some other past avatar learned it. We saw Roku lavabend in base here at the 3:25 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAcmSwyirRY We saw Kyoshi lavabend in base here at the 0:50 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-9OvEV_gNw and on top of that its stated on page 211 of the rpg core book here: https://imgur.com/a/hbUhfuf that there are many lavabending masters in the rpg's later eras such as the Korra era. Since many usually means at least more than 2 that means Bolin isn't the only one. So Szeto + Roku + Kyoshi + Ghazan + Sun + Bolin + at least 2 unnamed masters = at least 8 lavabenders. Compare that to say, the number of spiritbenders or the number of spiritual projection users which is actually only 3(Korra, Makittuq, & Unalaq). If you hold the position that rarity = it must be genetic then you'd also have to say that techniques like spiritbending and spiritual projection must also be rare due to genetics, even though there are explanations with more evidence such as it being rare due to it being very difficult to learn.
"it’s an inference from lack of counterevidence where counterevidence should exist. If lavabending could be learned, the show’s worldbuilding (esp. Legend of Korra) would show training or practitioners. We see none, despite extensive coverage of training for metalbending, bloodbending, healing, lightningbending, and more."
This is just an argument from silence fallacy. Also we do see practitioners such as Ghazan and Bolin, and its stated that Bolin trained his lavabending in the rpg since he went from a novice in book 3 to a master after the comics, and the way he did this is similar to how he quickly mastered earthbending through training.
"The test score analogy is a smokescreen. It conflates cause with effect and pretends complexity undermines probability. But in Avatar, rare bending forms aren’t left to mystery—they are explained. Metalbending? Invented, taught, now widespread. Bloodbending? Taught but outlawed. Lavabending? Still no method, no mention of practice."
The test score analogy is an apt analogy that maps on very well to your argument. The score is the bending rarity, the reason behind the score/rarity is the unknown method which you assume to studying(genetics). The alternate methods of achieving the score(rarity) are the other many explanations for why bending can be rare. The only difference between the analogy and your argument is that in this case we have multiple other test takers(bending techniques) that all passed the test(are rare) because they all cheated(learned via training). Yet you still baselessly assume that it is due to genetics(studying). How every bending form in the verse can be attained was never immediately explained in the verse. For instance we saw healing discovered by accident long before we ever saw the training method, we saw lightning performed by Azula long before Iroh ever explained how to learn it, we saw CM use combustionbending long before it was ever explained in the Yangchen novels, etc. Just like how we saw Roku perform lavabending all the way back in book 1 long before it was ever explained how it can be acquired. Does that mean that if we go back in time and watch avatar with no other context that we then automatically assume that healing, lightningbending, and combustionbending can only be genetic just because we see only a few people do it without explaining their power? Obviously not, since that'd just be an argument based off of an absence of evidence. And there is blatant mention of lavabending practice on page 155 of wan shi tong's adventure guide: "If the PCs arrive during the evening, a single shy student practices lavabending, which glows in the dark of night, and can fetch their instructor."
"That’s not how burden of proof works. If one theory has clear, consistent observable support (lavabending is rare, untrained, and seemingly spontaneous), and others have zero textual or visual evidence, the one supported by canon is more credible. Making up "secret traditions" or "mental blocks" with no support isn't balance—it's narrative headcanon"
You are making the positive claim that lavabending must be genetic because it is rare. In order to prove that positive claim you'd have to provide evidence for genetics playing a factor other than an argument from ignorance fallacy and a circular reasoning fallacy where you claim that it is genetic because it is rare and it is rare because it is genetic. I've already presented proof for why it it's rarity is likely to be due to its difficulty since its stated in the rpg and shown to us in the show that every specialized technique is difficult to learn. Even if you don't trust the rpg statements you can still get the same information from the show and novels that that specialized skills are the hardest ones to learn. Lightningbending blows up in your face without the right training and mental state, healing is unlocked by injuring yourself or by finding a master to train you, spirit projection is a high level move that requires high spirituality, combustionbending requires large lungs and torturous training, flight requires the right mental state of learning to let go of attachments, metalbending can be gained by accident or by training, bloodbending requires training on animals or training under a master, and spiritbending requires proper training as does seismic sense. The more inconsistent intepretaion would be the interpretation that lavabending requires no specific kind of training or mental state to unlock. We already saw that one of the methods of unlocking lava is by forcing the student into a situation where they need to lavabend, which was corroborated by Sun showing us that he accidentally lavabends when he is in a tight spot like when he got pressed by his opponent's waterbending and got angry. Pushing lava at someone or making them mad is basically just the same methods Toph used to try to unlock Aang's earthbending by rolling a rock at him and making him mad. All a teacher would need to do is to copy Toph's teaching method and push lava towards the student and make them mad to help unlock their lavabending. To deny that lavabending can be unlocked by training is to deny that Bolin unlocked lavabending due to being cornered and to deny that a known earthbending training method is to corner the student.
"The RPG is supplemental material and exists to give players access to bending powers—not to retcon character abilities. Just because a player character can attempt lavabending doesn’t mean Toph ever did, or that the show’s canon supports the same assumption."
The rpg doesn't retcon the reason behind lavabending's rarity since the reason for its rarity is never stated elsewhere in the verse. In order for it to be a retcon there would need to be a concrete prior statement that it was only rare because of genes. My argument is not that Toph attempted lavabending because the player can attempt lavabending, you're attacking another strawman. My argument was that Toph likely attempted lava because she was eager to train Sun and curious about the technique which is why she hunted him down and recruited him. And because it is stated she does not take long to learn any new technique, and because canonically Sun has spent long enough at the academy to the point where he is capable enough to teach others lavabending which implies he has been there a while. If he can teach others then he should have no problem teaching Toph especially since she saved him and is housing him. And because she knows that one of the methods of unlocking bending is by putting the student in danger and making them mad like she did to Aang. Meaning she has had all the means, the method, and the time to learn it. I never argued that there is evidence in the show's canon that supports the idea that Toph learning lavabending my argument up to now was just based on the rpg statements. But now that you mention it there is some evidence in the show as well since we already saw her quickly pick up new fluid-like techniques like sandbending in a matter of months. But that is only corroborating evidence for the rpg statements which are the main evidence.
@Bastion2.0 "You're using assumptions to explain why toph would not tell bolin she could do it for reasons that would not be in her character."
How is it not in her character for her to dislike Bolin? How is it not in her character to not want to take on new students? I agree that in character she likes to brag but her desire to brag to people is obviously outweighed by her desire to remain in retirement and not be bothered by new prospective students or else she wouldn't have made her retirement her current major life goal. The only thing that bragging to Bolin is going to accomplish is to make him even more annoying and pestering to her so obviously it's in character for her to not desire more annoyances.
"But we have never seen the methods behind it or training, so you cannot assume it can be trained"
We also have never seen aliens exist but does that mean that they can't possibly exist? Obviously not. To claim that there's no evidence and therefore it can't be the case is just an argument from ignorance fallacy. Also there is evidence that specialized techniques can be acquired via training since that's one of the main ways that every specialized technique in the verse thus far can be attained. This is made very explicit in the rpg core book on pages 216 and 217 where lavabending is listed as one of the specialized techniques that can be acquired through training and where they say that: "These specialized bending forms aren’t unique abilities, gifted only to a few special characters, but they are extremely difficult to master" and "A PC can also try to learn a specialized form of bending during play, just by using the regular training move above to study a technique of the appropriate specialized form of bending."
"especially since bolin did it at random"
Like I said in my last reply this just means that there can be at least 2 methods of acquiring it but it doesn't lend credence to the idea that it can't also be acquired via training. That'd be like saying that healing can only be acquired by accident because Katara discovered it that way.
"Lavabending is we have seen actual classes for it, meaning it can be learned as well as discovered accidentally."
That's good then it sounds like we both agree that it can be gained by training or by accident. In which case that means that all we really disagree on is if the training + the right genetics is required or if it's just the training alone that's required.
""Bitter work" Iroh "Only a select few firebenders can separate these energies" this means that it is rare and we know that not every firebender can generate lightning. so one is born with the ability to do this."
Iroh did not say the reason for why it is rare, just that it is rare. This could just mean that very few firebenders can learn it because very few firebenders can attain the right state of mind needed for lightningbending and overcome the mental block that Zuko had, or it could mean that very few firebenders are skillful enough to separate and guide the energy, or a combination of these factors. Iroh's statement doesn't really lend any credence one way or the other as to whether it is rare due to genetics or rare due to a skill gap. We'd only assume that only firebenders who have a lightningbending gene can lightningbend if there was good evidence pointing us towards that answer. In fact we have more evidence for it being a skill issue and a mental issue than we do for it being a genetic issue since it is stated to be the most complex firebending move in the Sozin's Comet novelization on page 7 and it's stated to be very complicated and difficult to learn on page 213 of the rpg core book: "rare techniques may be even more complicated to grasp, and techniques tied to specialized forms of bending that the PC hasn’t learned yet—metalbending techniques, bloodbending techniques, combustionbending techniques—are the hardest." Whereas there are no statements I know of that say it's rarity is due to genetics.
"the evidence is that despite the technique having been known since the formation of the united republic and even toph's knowledge of it, only 3 have been shown to do it. and we have never seen it being trained or taught. if it could be taught there would be more doing it. its the best logical conclusion we can fall back on given the evidence"
This is just another argument from ignorance fallacy. You're basically saying that since we don’t know of any other explanation for lavabending’s rarity, it must be because of genetics. Even though there are many other explanations that could also explain its rarity such as because it might be a closely guarded secret, or because it's considered taboo, or because not many users are skilled enough to incorporate far different waterbender-esque techniques into their normal blunt earthbending style, or because it might require a certain fluid waterbender-esque state of mind and most earthbenders can't overcome that mental block, or because it might take an above average amount of chi to be able to heat stone to that degree and most earthbenders don't reach that power threshold, etc. All of those explanations don't really have supporting evidence but since your genetic explanation also doesn't have supporting evidence they should all be at least equally as likely. But if you wanted to use an explanation that does have some evidence then you could just argue that it is rare because it is very difficult to learn(which is stated in the rpg). Even if I were to steelman your argument and agree that some techniques like lightning are genetic, that argument still wouldn't work since it is just an association fallacy. You'd basically be saying that because lavabending is rare, and we know genes explain other rare skills, therefore lavabending must also be genetic. Basically asserting that the properties of one skill must also be the properties of another skill just because they are in the same group. If me and my classmate both have high test scores that doesn't have to mean that the reason behind our scores is because we both studied hard, one of us might have already known what was on the test, or we could have cheated by copying our neighbor's answers, bribed the teacher, hacked the school computer's grading system, etc.
"And also the book says nearly every technique. and looking at all the specialized earthbending techniques, that would be accurate since there is only one she does not know. if she knew lavabending it would say she knew all of them."
I agree that she doesn't know every earthbending technique, that was never my claim so you're just attacking a strawman. My argument only relies on the statement that it won't take her long to learn any new technique combined with the fact that she has already spent a long while training with Sun which should give her adequate amount of time to learn it. Also the book doesn't specifically say that she knows nearly every specialized technique, but rather just nearly every earthbending technique in general. So if she did happen to know lavabending at the point when that statement was made then the statement still would not be contradictory since there are still many techniques that she might lack that we have no evidence of her ever learning like Yun's pigmentbending, liquid earth, earth spouts, saltbending, glassbending, etc.
@Bastion2.0 "But it is mentioned and she does not state she can do it too. she even comments that it is a rare ability and is impressed by bolin having inherited it."
Her being impressed Bolin can do it does not prevent her from having it too. If I were to have 200 IQ and I meet someone else who also has 200 IQ and I am impressed that someone else was able to reach my level that doesn't inherently mean I'm not smart or that I have to reveal my IQ to the person I just met in order to make that comment.
"Its not that she needs to volunteer to do it, a quick mention of it would be enough but she doesn't mention it. there is also no hint that she can either."
Like I already said, if she mentions it at all then obviously the first thing Bolin would ask is if she can teach him to improve his lavabending since so far he is only self-taught. If you're in Toph's position there is no reason to open that can of worms to begin with and even put the idea in Bolin's head in the first place since then the pestering will never end. I disagree that there is no hint since the hint comes via the rpg game saying that she doesn't take long to master new skills + she has already been teaching Sun for long enough for him to be able to teach others. If you actually think that there is no hint for either position then that would force you to have an agnostic view on whether or not she is likely to be able to lavabend but judging by your initial messages you're not agnostic towards the idea but rather negative towards the idea.
"Anything that isn't canon or not supported by it, I don't consider canon"
Not exactly sure which part of my argument you think isn't based on canon.
"There is no evidence to show that lavabending is a learned technique. unless we see or hear of the learning of a specialized bending technique, it is safe to assume people are born with it."
This can just be dismissed under hitchen's razor unless you have some evidence for it being genetic. If you actually think that there is no evidence for it being learned or for it being genetic then that would also force you to adopt an agnostic position about which one it is unless you have some evidence.
"especially since Bolin's first time doing it was up to chance and wasn't learned at all."
It being able to be triggered by external factors does not inherently mean that it is genetic. That just means that it can be learned by training or by accident. For example we've already seen in the verse that healers can learn healing by training from a young age like the girls in Yagoda's class or like how Atuat trained Kyoshi or you can discover it by accident like how Katara healed herself by accident due to external factors. Similarly Toph's students metalbent Toph's meteor bracelet by accident when they were in extreme emotional states but then there are others who discovered it via training like Korra.
"even things like lightning are stated to be a birth thing"
I've never seen any statement in the verse that says lightningbending is determined by genetics so please provide the statement you're referencing. But also even if lightning is tied to genetics, that doesn't really affect my argument since the vast majority of special techniques are still just techniques you can unlock through training. This would just changes the number of genetic techniques from 0 to 1.
"But the thing is that with literally ALL those other techniques is that we have methods to them. we know how to either obtain or learn them. lavabending is the only one without that and until it is revealed, the safest bet is that it is a born ability. random."
So basically you're saying that because we don't have any evidence that it is learnable through training, it therefore must be genetic? That's just an argument from ignorance fallacy + a hasty generalization fallacy rolled into one. It'd be like saying that because there is no evidence that the sheep is black, it therefore must be white. Despite there literally being no evidence for it being white either, nor are there even any white sheep in existence, or in this case there is no evidence for it being genetic, nor is there any specialized technique in the verse that is solely granted by genetics.
"And let me re-ask, where can I find this canon RPG statement about toph, you forgot to drop it"
I already sent it in my last reply. It's in Wan Shi Tong's adventure guide pages 35 and 155.
@Bastion2.0 Yeah we see her in her golden years but there was still no narrative purpose for her to use lavabending during the time we saw her in TLOK either. She is extremely annoyed by Bolin the entire time she around him and is trying to push him away and just be done with the job as soon as possible so she can get away from him. So if she volunteers to lavabend with him then the first thing he is gonna ask is for her to teach him lavabending which she doesn't want to do seeing as how she was reluctant enough to take on a student who is as important as the Avatar let alone a random guy she just met when all she wants is to enjoy her retirement alone. So she has every reason not to tell him about her skill. My reasons for it being probable that she can lavabend weren't based solely on the shows they were also based on what is told to us in the RPG game. To assume that all specialized skills like lavabending are only something you're born with just because some people once thought that the same applied to combustionbending is just an appeal to popularity fallacy combined with an argument based off of absence of evidence. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Especially in this case where there is far more evidence to the contrary of the idea that specialized techniques require the right genetics compared to the idea that most specialized techniques can just be learned through skill and practice like seismic sense, lightningbending, metalbending, bloodbending, healing, flight, spiritbending, etc. Whereas the only one that is tied in any way to genetics is combustionbending since its stated in LOY that most combustionbenders tend to be tall with big lungs which are both traits that are affected by genetics, but its not like the genetics themselves grant you combustionbending, you still need the underwater training to earn that, all the genetics do is give you a better chance to pass the training.
@Bastion2.0 I don't think the fact that it hasn't been revealed yet makes it unlikely that it will ever be revealed. There are a variety of reasons for why the writers might want to save such a reveal for later. For instance perhaps they would much rather save that reveal for a more important moment in a future show or movie instead of just having it be offhandedly mentioned in some obscure comic or rpg book that fewer fans will ever know about, or they could want to tie her learning lavabending to some key character moment like how they did with other characters unlocking new techniques, or they could think lavabending will look better in animation than it does in a comic, or they could not want to make Toph even more OP so quickly and only let her have it once she is older, etc. They couldn't have her learn it in ATLA because back then it was still considered to be an avatar exclusive skill until they retconned that in TLOK, and then in TLOK there was no narrative purpose for her to showcase it there. So their only remaining choices are to have her learn it in a comic or in the rpg or to like mention it on the podcast or something, and all of those formats get less eyes on them than a show or movie would. I've never seen any statement that mentions that lavabending is a technique you have to be born with so please point me to where you got that info from. The quotes I cited from the rpg are from Wan Shi Tong's adventure guide pages 35 and 155
The answer is probably yes but we won't know for sure until we see it happen or if its stated that she did it. Canonically the answer is probably yes because in the rpg game it is stated that she "is a true prodigy, likely the master of nearly any earthbending technique conceivable, and if she hasn’t mastered it already it won’t take her long at all." Plus Toph was confident in being able to teach Sun how to use lavabending, and according to the rpg Sun is currently receiving instruction from her: "If the PCs arrive during the evening, a single shy student practices lavabending, which glows in the dark of night, and can fetch their instructor. Toph Beifong is not present, having been called away on an important mission—something that happens with regularity. Believing Sparrowkeet Air wouldn’t dare accost the academy, Qian Yu is content to wait for Toph’s return under the protection of the Metalbenders. (Note: If a PC is an Earthbender for whom learning to metalbend or lavabend is a part of their character’s story, here is an opportunity for them to learn that skill or make connections to learn it in the future." So she won't take long to master it and she's currently teaching a lavabender who became capable enough to teach other people because of her tutelage. All signs point to her being able to do it in the near future if she has not done it already, especially seeing as how there are no statements in the verse that say that earthbenders can't learn multiple special techniques.
Appa one shot the spirit wolf in the Search who tanked Katara's ice, Zuko's fire, and Sokka's boomerang all at the same time. Sokka's boomerang alone is capable of knocking out Yaling who survived attacks from Toph, let alone the other two attacks on top of that. tldr Appa negs Toph
When will the braving the elements podcast episode that you recorded live in San Fransisco be released? I was in the crowd and was excited to share it with my friends who couldn't make it but it never got publicly posted on iheart for them to hear. :(
How much creative freedom did Nick give you in terms of adding new lore? Also have you met Bryke?