<div class="quote"><i>She's kind of parallels Korra in some ways in that she is a point that is[snip]</i></div>
<p>I think this is all pretty fair. </p> <div class="quote"><i>I've heard "Mary Sue" used more broadly to mean "creators' pet." But more often than not, it seems to mean "character, usually female, whom I don't like."</i></div>
<p>There are definitely several different definitions. For my own part, I judge definitions based on whether or not they provide useful information. </p><p>If Person X calls Character Y a Mary Sue because X doesn't like Y, that's totally pointless, Y doesn't have to be a Mary Sue to be disliked. X may want to justify or explain X's feelings about Y, but trying to force a criticism to fit isn't really doing either of those things. It's fine to not like a character, but lack a logical explanation for it. </p><p>As far as the definition that it has to be from fan fiction...why? As much as I rag on it, the only meaningful distinction between fan fiction & non fan fiction is that the latter is published. You might also include that fan fiction is based on something else, but movie adaptations of books aren't considered fan fiction, nor are spinoffs by another writer. So it doesn't follow that, if I wrote a character with all of these traits that we call "Mary Sue," it would suddenly stop fitting the definition just if I happen to get published. </p><p>There is also the definition that a Mary Sue is a stand-in for the author, but I think that unnecessarily conflates these negative characteristics with a character that's merely based on the author. You can have 1, but not the other. </p><p>Considering it to be synonymous with Creator's Pet might work, depending on how you define Creator's Pet. </p>

why fan fiction? because the original Mary Sue was from a Star Trek Fan fic. That is where the trope began and defined it.

<p>By that logic, "Mary Sue" should only apply to the Star Trek universe. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Love Robin wrote: why fan fiction? because the original Mary Sue was from a Star Trek Fan fic. That is where the trope began and defined it. </p> </i></div>
<p>So? The term can't evolve? It always has to refer to Mary Sue from that particular Star Trek fan fiction? </p> <div class="quote"><i>Otherwise Superman and Batman would be "Mary Sues"</i></div>
<p>Exactly, canon characters can EASILY full under the definition, UNLESS you stipulate the ARBITRARY condition that only fan fictions "count." This is just a special pleading fallacy. </p>

<div class="quote"><i>Neo Bahamut wrote:
<div class="quote"> <p>Awesomebubble wrote: Look, I know you mean well and you're trying to justify your beliefs on why Jinora isn't a "Mary-Sue" type character, but believe me, I know what I'm talking about when I say that I believe she is. And anyway I'm not looking to argue or have a convincing discussion with anyone. All I wanted to say is that I hate Jinora. If you like her, that's fine with me. I'm not judging or saying that you suck for liking her. But in the same way that I'm respecting your opinion, I would like mine to be respected to. I've always hated Jinora, and that isn't going to change. My reasons for hating her seem valid to me, and even if they're not valid to anyone else, I'm fine with that. So please stop trying to convince me that Jinora is a good character, and just leave my opinion as it is. </p> </i></div>
<p>If you don't want to talk about it, you are free to not respond, but there are 2 things I want to make clear: </p><p>1. There is nothing respectable about "I hate this character so much that I don't care whether or not it makes sense." </p><p>2. I am not "trying to justify my beliefs," you are failing to justify yours. I would only have to prove that she's "not a Mary Sue" if you had 1st established that anything you said actually demonstrates Sue Status. I gave more explanation than was necessary purely to stimulate the thoughts of myself & others. And actually, I don't feel like Sues are automatically bad characters. I think Batman often meets the definition, but they still manage to make him interesting, so it usually doesn't bother me. </p> </div> <p>1. Why isn't my opinion respectable? Is it because I don't like a character that you do? Or is it because I'm voicing an unpopular opinion? Either way, I don't think it's appropriate to say my opinion isn't respectable just because I don't like Jinora. I think everyone's opinions are valid, as long as they're bashing other people for what they think. I actually think that's what you're doing. You're saying that my opinion isn't valid when I believe it to be. </p><p>2. I believe that Jinora is a Mary-Sue for a lot of reasons, and I also think that the term "Mary-Sue" applies to canon characters <i>as well as</i> fanfiction characters. I can name a list of Mary-Sue characters that are completely canon. Sometimes I like them, and sometimes I don't. Jinora happens to be one of characters I don't like. Like you said, Sues aren't automatically bad characters. And I don't have to justify my beliefs if I don't want to, especially if, when I voice my beliefs, you're going to say they aren't respectable. </p>

<p>wikipedia:Mary_Sue </p>

<p>1. Then you don't know what "valid" means. Your opinion is uninformed, 1 reason to not respect it. That you straw man questioning your logic as "bashing you for not liking the character" is another reason. There are others. Believing something doesn't mean it's automatically valuable information. </p><p>2. I say your opinion is not respectable BECAUSE you won't justify it logically. Of course you can choose not to do that, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize you for it. That's completely unfair, you're asking me to give you equal consideration to someone who actually puts in the work to prove their point. And all of this time you spend complaining about not being taken seriously, you COULD be showing that I'm wrong. If indeed I am. Not to mention, nobody ever explains why, according to the inane argument that "every opinion is equal," having the opinion that this statement is wrong is the exception. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Love Robin wrote: wikipedia:Mary_Sue </p> </i></div>
<p>If you read beyond the 1st sentence, the article makes several references to critics who consider canon characters to be Mary Sues. So there are 2 ways to interpret this information: </p><p>1. "In fan fiction" does not necessarily imply that the term cannot be used outside of fan fiction. </p><p>2. The article's definition contradicts what the article itself says about the usage of the term. </p><p>Either interpretation fails to support the assertion that using the term in this way is somehow "wrong." I think I'll also point these problems out on the article's talk page. </p>

<div class="quote"><i>Neo Bahamut wrote:
1. Then you don't know what "valid" means. Your opinion is uninformed, 1 reason to not respect it. That you straw man questioning your logic as "bashing you for not liking the character" is another reason. There are others. Believing something doesn't mean it's automatically valuable information. <p>2. I say your opinion is not respectable BECAUSE you won't justify it logically. Of course you can choose not to do that, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize you for it. That's completely unfair, you're asking me to give you equal consideration to someone who actually puts in the work to prove their point. And all of this time you spend complaining about not being taken seriously, you COULD be showing that I'm wrong. If indeed I am. Not to mention, nobody ever explains why, according to the inane argument that "every opinion is equal," having the opinion that this statement is wrong is the exception. </p> </i></div>
<p>1. Oh yes, trust Wikipedia to give you the perfect picture of what a Mary-Sue character is like. You do know that definitions change as time goes on, right? Just because this one person made the Mary-Sue term a long time ago doesn't mean that it can't change to fit modern times. And just because <i>you </i>think my opinion is uninformed, it doesn't mean you can't respect it. Whatever happened to "letting people believe what they believe"? I have all of the evidence I need to make a judgement on Jinora's character, and I've decided that I don't like her. Why can't you just let me have my opinion and leave me alone? I'm not making a judgement on you, or the writers of the show. I'm making a judgement based on <i>Jinora</i> herself. And while you could argue that me judging Jinora does pertain to the judgement of the writers, I am in no way saying that they suck for making her. I'm saying that I don't like Jinora as a person. Let's say you don't like someone in your class at school. Would you blame their parents for raising them to be someone you dislike? No. You would take a look at them and say "I don't like you because you're you." And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as you can stay in your lane. It does become a problem, however, when you let your dislike of that person grow so big that you take it out on them. That's when it becomes unacceptable. And I don't consider my hatred of Jinora valuable information. You're right when you say that believing something doesn't automatically consider it valuable. But just because it isn't valuable, doesn't mean it can't be respected. And when I say "respected" I mean, "letting me believe what I want to believe without trying to convince me or put me down" </p><p>2. Just because I choose not to justify my answer doesn't make it not respectable. If I said something like "do you like apples?" and you said "no", am I going to pester you with questions to justify why you don't like apples? No. It'd be one thing if you were allergic to them, but in this case the reason why you said "no" was because you just don't like the flavour. And so I'm not going to argue with you about apples, I'm going to say, "Okay. That's your opinion and I respect it." That's all I'm asking for here. To begin with, I never asked for any comment on my original post about how much I hated Jinora. My opinion is still valid, even if I choose not to justify it. I have my reasons, and even if you don't see them, that's alright. I don't like Jinora because she's Jinora. She, <i>as a person, </i>rubs me the wrong way. And I can come up with a list if that will satisfy you. But all I'm asking for is a simple, "I respect that that is your opinion, and I will leave you to it. My opinion is different than yours, but that's okay because not everyone has to agree with me." The types of people I've run into that try to convince me to change my beliefs or opinions are the type of people who want control.  </p><p>3. And to explain to you why the term "everyone's opinion is equal" is a valid statement, refer to my apple example above. The only case in which opinions aren't equal is when someone's opinion infringes on harming other people or themselves. For instance, the opinions of which fruits are the best are all equal, because the "best fruit" is different to each person, and we should respect that their taste buds like different flavours of fruit. But opinions such as "women are less than men" or "black people are disgusting" or "gay people are wrong" are not equal, because they harm other people and infringe on the basic rights of humans.  </p><p>4. For the love of all that is holy could you just accept that I have a different opinion than yours? You don't have to like it, and you don't have to encourage it, but the least you could do is accept it and move on. It's a very easy thing to do actually. If you really want a list of why I find Jinora unappealing, I'll give it to you. I'm just concerned that for each reason I give as to why I don't like her, you're going to give a counterargument, which is not what I'm looking for. I just came here because I was glad to finally find someone else who didn't like Jinora (the OP).  </p>

<p>Awesomebubble, I think you're wrong about Jinora being a Mary Sue. As I pointed out, she often ends up being effectively useless to the group, and needs to be saved lotsa times, actually. But since she also very often makes a 180 degree turn into being a Deus Ex Machina and then effortlessly resolves whatever issue was keeping the plot from progressing, I see how you could've gotten that idea. </p>