<div class="quote"><i>Thebridge14 wrote:
Ok so now you critisize my knowledge of the show called my arguments gibberish call me "a copout", again by saying agree to disagree is a harmless response but to prove My points about Zahee,r You were talking about how he had no will power because he detached himself, I then explained that he had enough innerstregth to fully let go of his true love Pli and the willpower to contunie his mission in poisioning korra and ending the avatar cycle and enough will power to stay composed instead of wallowing in Plis Death. You than said he didnt have enough will power because he didnt rip Korras throat out.Ok your allowed to think that but if you were to rewatch the episode Zaheer was pulling Korra out of the tornado with him, he could have fled himself but his determination prevented him from leaving without Korra. What I summurized about Pattik was that letting go is diffcult and it takes willpower, The cosmic aang that apeared when he let go of Katara was an exemplification of his controll over himself and control over the avatar state and thus having control takes will power and yes I understand the Fire and Thought Chakras are sepperate but they both include parts of eachother as all Chakras do . I then compared this to when Zaheer let go of Pli he had the innear strength to do so. See how being wrong and not wanting to continue and end peacefully are two sepperate things. I didnt cop out of anything. Hate to break to you but it seems your just looking to fight. </i></div>
<p>Based on this argument and all the ones you've made before, any fight is likely to be a short one... </p><p>Letting go of something does not necessarily take willpower.  It did in Aang's case because he did not <i>want </i>to let go of his feeling for Katara.  Turning your back on something you want so much does take a lot of determination and requires you to commit to your decision every step of the way.   </p><p>Problem is, it doesn't really apply to Zaheer.  Zaheer's personal philosophy (which he has subsrcibed to for decades) has a lot of elements of nihilism and stoicism.  He will not fret over things beyond his control, he will accept death as inevitible, and he will not regard personal feelings as anything more than temporary luxuries.  As such Zaheer will have prepared himself for the eventuality of P'li's and all the other Red Lotus members' deaths long beforehand.  Don't forget, he had 13 long years to get used to her not being around.  Letting go of her would not require him to struggle through the same kind of personal, moral dilemma Aang did.  For Zaheer, it would be as easy as flipping a lightswitch--little to no willpower is necessary.   </p>

<p>....doesn't it take willpower to accept the death of people you love, to not fret over things beyond your control, accept death as inevitable? Particularly the last one. It seems like it would take a lot of mental fortitude to combat such a natural human response, such as not wanting to die. I don't think Zaheer accepted death as inevitable. He could've sacrificed himself to kill Korra, but it was more important to him to survive the tornado. But based on what you asserted regarding his belief system, it seems to back up that he did have willpower. </p>

<p>It would if you hadn't been practicing for 13+ years to shut those responses down.  If you keep at anything long enough, eventually it becomes second nature and you can do it without thinking about it.  But my argument wasn't that Zaheer lacks willpower (I think he does have quite a bit), it was that his ability to fly has nothing to do with willpower.  If you go back in the thread you'll see that thebridge14 is basically arguing "Zaheer can fly, therefore he has a lot of willpower, therefore he could resist Amon's bloodbending."  I'm specifically arguing against the first link in that chain of reasoning. </p>

<p>I think ou guys didn't really understand Zaheer didn't let go of his love for P'li, he just freed himself from wordly things. He certainly didn't o trough the same dilema Aang did because never crossed his mind to do that even if he had 13 years to "get used" he couldn't let go of her, an when she died there was nothing in the world he was atached to. We all lose someone so you should understand that some people mourn for a long time but eventually let it go but they still would be attached to something else. But Zaheer had nothing like that, can you say you could live with no attachment? No people, objects, etc. holding you on earth? I can't and Aang couldn't too. </p>

<div class="quote"><i>Samanthademeste wrote:
Who is the best?</i></div>
<p>Good quastion. </p>

<p>I know you guys are all robots but here is the thing: </p><p>He wasn't training during these 13 years to dettach himself from her, if so he wouldn't even be so sad when she died and would be able to fly as soon as he got his airbending. If she didn't die he wouldn't got his flight, and this has nothing to do with willpower but priorities. </p>

<p>@McJedi: Yes, but wouldn't that 13+ years of practice take the willpower. In order to get to a place where something that was difficult becomes second nature you'd have to go through a lot of mental struggle, and it would require a lot of willpower to get there. </p><p>I understand, I just was curious in what you were trying to argue. Your retort makes sense in response to thebridge's thing. But I just wanted to argue that in order to get to the place where it is second nature, he would have to have willpower. </p>

<p>Call it robotic, but if he's hung up on a love in the way that you seem to view it, then that would not be letting go of earthly attachments. Yes, he loved P'li, but it's a fundamentally different understanding of love than what you seem to believe. While their relationship obviously mattered to him, he was not obsesive about it. Like the mentioned fear of death, one could not be afraid of death and be at peace with the inevitability of it, but resist tooth and nail a premature death with willpower "All will die one day...but for me, not today." That would be a mixture of the two concepts working in concert. Whereas "I'm afraid to die" probably lacks willpower and certainly is not letting go of worldly attachments. </p><p>With love, one can acknowledge that the relationship may change, one party in it may die, but that's the reality of it and becoming fixated on not losing that or dwelling on that which cannot be changed (she's dead) is unhealthy and does not help him at all in the situation, and probably actually reduces the ability to love. Also, you need to consider the fact that they were committed to taking on the Avatar and basically every world government, with little more than their merry little band. They mentally prepared themselves to die. </p><p>It is entirely possible to love without being fixated, and that is actually very much in line with what Guru Pathik's chakra training was about and how Zaheer and P'li's relationship apparently was. </p><p>However, and this would get into a whole topic, western romantic love is very different from the kind of love we're talking about in eastern ideas influenced by Taoism and the like. </p>

<p>@Lady Apsalar:  Yes, I agree that at the very beginning it would take a lot of determination, but that's the point of practicing--it gets easier each time so that when shit hits the fan and you have to do it for real you don't have to go through that initial struggle.  At the moment of P'li's death, he had prepared so thoroughly that jumping off the cliff required no affirmative exertion of willpower.  All of the willpower he exerted all those years ago was so far removed from that point in time that it had no appreciable effect on his actions </p><p>@SaitamaBro:  Part of the stoic philosophy that Zaheer seems to adhere to is that you enjoy what you have for as long as you have it, but recognize that the time will come when you no longer have it.  In that respect, his relationship with P'li was an attachment he <i>chose </i>to hold on to until it was not physically possible anymore.  That doesn't mean he will feel no sadness at losing that relationship (though honestly he didn't seem all <i>that </i>sad to me), but it does mean that he will not try to hold on to that relationship, because he knows it would be futile to do so. </p>

<p>I understand what you're saiyng but i'm saiyn that just because they were separated for 13 years doesn't mean he loved her less or that it would be easier to him to dettach himself after her death. You make it look like when he was imprisoned he was only preparing for the especific moment of her death. </p><p>And he did look pretty sad to me when he looked to the blood where she was before exploding, easily one of the saddest faces in the two shows, in my opnion. </p>