<div class="quote"><i>As for Agni Kais being a spectator sport, that definitely seems to be true considering the massive audience during the Agni Kai between Zuko and Ozai, however all Agni Kais may not have such big audiences,</i></div>
<p>I suspect it varies based on whether or not an audience is available & how interesting the fight is. </p> <div class="quote"><i>but when I thought about this Agni Kai it made me wonder, did the audience know that Zuko was about to battle Ozai?</i></div>
<p>I would say they probably did, for several reasons: </p>

• They did not, as far as we can tell, react with shock at the start of the duel.
• This is probably in part because, though the way the duel was set up hid him from Zuko & we the real world audience, the Fire Lord had to have been visible to a number of people in the stands.
• It's suggested that Zuko was ignorant of the customs surrounding speaking out of turn in the Fire Lord's chamber, but the adults were not.

<div class="quote"><i>I also thought about how Agni Kais possibly could have been used in many political power struggles, but in this case I think it would be used more as a threat, like if someone knew they could defeat their enemy in an Agni Kai they may have challenged them unofficially and the enemy (knowing he would lose) would then surrender unofficially in order to avoid disgrace.</i></div>
<p>Yeah, probably. Death is apparently a serious risk in an Agni Kai, yet if they decline then the stigma could well destroy their political career, so it would be very advantageous to use against a weaker firebender. The fact that insulting a superior officer is grounds for an Agni Kai could reflect this. The choice between status or life may have a greater effect on unruly soldiers or firebrand politicians than conventional discipline, & so be an effective threat to keep them in line under an illusion of a fair meritocracy. </p> <div class="quote"><i>This lead me to think about the purpose of the Agni Kai, which I guess is to ensure that the most powerful individuals rules the Fire Nation, but the question is, would honour and fighting fair be considered part of a strong individual and leadership (Zuko) or does the Fire Nation want people that makes sure to win with any means necessary (Azula)?</i></div>
<p>I am inclined to speculate that attacking the audience is not considered a viable tactic because (A) it doesn't demonstrate that the combatant wins through honor & strength, (B) the audience would usually be Fire Nation citizens, so this would damage morale, & (C) it would discourage people from attending Agni Kais, which further damages morale. </p><p>Of course, I don't think anything is quite that simple. The Fire Nation military was quite willing to pollute that tiny fishing village, so abuses against poor or rural citizens are probably more likely to be overlooked. </p>

<p style="margin-bottom:1em;line-height:26px;">I agree with you on the previous points, but I will comment further on the matter below.</p> <p style="margin-bottom:1em;line-height:26px;">"I am inclined to speculate that attacking the audience is not considered a viable tactic because (A) it doesn't demonstrate that the combatant wins through honor & strength, (B) the audience would usually be Fire Nation citizens, so this would damage morale, & (C) it would discourage people from attending Agni Kais, which further damages morale.</p> <p style="line-height:26px;margin-bottom:0px!important;">Of course, I don't think anything is quite that simple. The Fire Nation military was quite willing to pollute that tiny fishing village, so abuses against poor or rural citizens are probably more likely to be overlooked." Yes I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that it isn't very simple, except for your example with the small fishing village we also have that one General, which intended to sacrifice some new recruits to defeat some of the Earth Kingdoms more experienced soldiers, where Zuko and Iroh seemed to be the only persons (on the meeting) reacting badly to that plan. So I guess that decisions that are morally questionable are either kept hidden from the public or excused by saying that the decision is better for the Fire Nation as a whole and or the Fire Lord.  </p>

<p>To me, yes, he lost. Zuko needed Katara to win; he probably would never have won without her. He went down like Iroh predicted he would if he took on Azula by himself. Half of Azula's strength comes from her wit, even though that was impailed, she still realized that if she shot at Katara, Zuko would go off balance and try to protect her. If Katara wouldn't have been there, would he have handled Azula? Honestly, it's unclear. You could say that "of course! Azula was clearly sloppy." But to me, Zuko and Azula seemed pretty even for the first time in the series. Zuko's firebending had improved since he learned from the dragons, but since he was so far behind Azula, it had only improved to her level when she was mentally impaired. Still, Azula isn't stupid. She was probably never going to shoot lightning directly at Zuko. She looked around before she realeased it; it was most likely going towards the surroundings or at his feet to get him off balance. Then popped in Katara. Since Katara <i>was </i>there, would Zuko have survived without her? No. Once Azula did her trick, Zuko needed Katara's healing abilities. Like Iroh predicted, they needed each other to take her down. </p><p>You could argue that since Azula shot at Katara, it voided the agni kai. But the fact is, Azula took Zuko down. He lost. He wouldn't have lived without Katara. It was Katara who took Azula down and then healed him. Poor Zuko, can't even win against Azula when she's completely bonkers! ;) </p><p>However, I don't really understand how this fight was any different than Iroh's "I can't fight Ozai, because history would see it as senseless violence between brother and brother, a brother taking down a brother for power." Here, you have a brother taking down his sister for power. Obviously, I'm not advocating an Azula rule; that would be awful. However, I'm stating that it makes either little sense to Iroh's comment or the validity of an agni kai between Zuko and Azula, whichever way you want to look at it. I guess since Zuko did technically lose (haha ;D), history can look at it as Katara taking down Azula. </p><p>An interesting question - even if Azula shot the lightning directly at Zuko, do you think Zuko would have redirected it directly back at her? He seems a little sympathetic towards his little sister, though she could clearly take him out with no worry. I don't know if he would have the guts (I don't know if that's the right word, more like the emotional apathy) to kill his sister. At one point, his family was happy, and they did all get along. </p>

<div class="quote"><i>You could argue that since Azula shot at Katara, it voided the agni kai.</i></div>
<p>Well, yeah, the title is, "Did he technically lose the Agni Kai." Of course he lost the fight if we ignore things like fairness & technicalities. </p> <div class="quote"><i>However, I don't really understand how this fight was any different than Iroh's "I can't fight Ozai, because history would see it as senseless violence between brother and brother, a brother taking down a brother for power."</i></div>
<p>I think the notion is that, as long as the Avatar defeats the Fire Lord, the details don't matter. </p> <div class="quote"><i>An interesting question - even if Azula shot the lightning directly at Zuko, do you think Zuko would have redirected it directly back at her?</i></div>
<p>Dunno, I could see it go either way. </p>

<p>I agree with you that Zuko and Azula was very evenly matched in their Agni Kai, but in a even fight even the smallest of things can tip the balance in favour of one of the combatants, like when Zuko managed to hit Azula with his firebending breakdance, not because it injured Azula physically, however it was probably a huge mental blow for Azula to be temporarily bested by Zuko (especially in her mentally unstable condition). So if the fight would have continued from that point onward I think that Zuko would have won (primarily because of Azula's increasing mental breakdown) and I don't think that Iroh's prediction accounted for Azula's reduced psychological capabilities. </p><p>Regarding Iroh's statement about siblings fighting for power, I think the major difference between Iroh fighting Ozai and Zuko fighting Azula is that when Ozai was defeated by Aang there needed to be a new ruler of the Fire Nation and both Zuko and Azula are natural choices for that position. However Aang could of course interfere again and make sure that Zuko is crowned Fire Lord, but this could create huge internal tensions in the Fire Nation and might create a civil war, I mean that Aang had to stop Ozai from burning down the Earth Kingdom isn't that hard to understand for even the Fire Nation, but that he is going to decide who is going to rule their country, might be considered a step to far. Furthermore Zuko and Azula's fight wasn't really for power, but for potential power, since none of them would get to rule until Aang had defeated Ozai, so their fight was a way to settle an internal political struggle and to stop a potential civil war. </p><p>As for Zuko's potential redirection of Azula's lightning, no I don't think that Zuko would redirect it directly at her, since I don't think that he wanted to kill her, because if he would have wanted to kill her he would probably tried to firebend at her while she was knocked down by his firebending breakdance. Another reason why I don't think he would want to kill her is because it would probably make him think that he resembled his father to much (considering Zuko's and Ozai's Agni Kai) and I don't think  Zuko want to be like his father. </p>

<p>There's no way Zuko lost. Because Azula acted unethically when she decided to attack someone not involved in the match, she forfeited the match, so Zuko won the match by default. </p>

<p>Agni Kai is two people; Azula lost when she got Katara involved (by firing her lightning at her). </p>

<div class="quote"><i>ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
<div class="quote">SaitamaBro wrote:
They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect. <p>If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows. </p> </i></div>
I actually think that Ursa loved both Azula, and Zuko, but that she spent more time with Zuko, since Ozai disliked him quite much (but it is very possible that Azula felt left out just because of this fact, and I think that the fact that Ursa was banished contributed in making Azula "turn out bad"). Furthermore, I also think that Zuko trained at least almost as much as Azula, because we have seen many times that Zuko can be very determined, so the reason why Azula was better, and got more attention from Ozai. was probably as you said, because she is a prodigy. Finally, Zuko finding out that Ozai didn't really loved him was according to me only the tip of the iceberg in making him "turn out fine", I mean we can't ignore Uncle Iroh, Aang, and his travels in the Earth Kingdom which all clearly contributed to the fact that Zuko "turned out fine". </div> <p>I know this is an off-topic conversation, but I wanted to butt in anyway </p><p>I think the reason Ursa spent so much time with Zuko is because he was such an easy target for Ozai. Azula was favored by Ozai because of her abilities; he didn't actually love her. Ursa's mistake was letting Ozai corrupt Azula (although I'm not sure what she could've done, Ozai pretty much gets his way in everything). I think Azula knew, deep down, that it was her abilities that made Ozai favor her so much, which is why she was such a perfectionist. She was desperate for love and approval, so she used fear to get people to stay with her (like Mai and Ty Lee, which is why she started losing it when they left her - she knew her tactics didn't work anymore, even with the people closest to her; she knew she had nobody... Which also explains why she got so upset when Ozai told her she couldn't go with him in the episode <i>The Phoenix King</i>; she thought her own father no longer wanted/needed her, AND why she was so paranoid with the Dai Li [although she did have a good point about them]... But anyway...). Zuko turned out fine because he followed his mother's and Iroh's example. However, he was somewhat corrupted in his search for the Avatar, because he, like Azula, was desperate for his father's approval and affection. BUT, unlike Azula, he had Iroh there with him. Zuko always had a sense of right and wrong (I'm sure Azula did, too, at one point, but she ignored it in favor of her father's affection), which is why he struggled so much. He pretty much had to decide between his father's approval and doing the right thing.  </p><p>I think this is also why Zuko and Iroh had such a strong bond. Zuko realized Iroh was the father he never had (which I think was his turning point; he knew he didn't need Ozai when Iroh was a much better father to him), and Iroh saw Zuko as another son (especially after Lu Ten's death). </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>EmeraldLion wrote: </p> <div class="quote">ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
<div class="quote">SaitamaBro wrote:
They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect. <p>If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows. </p> </i></div>
I actually think that Ursa loved both Azula, and Zuko, but that she spent more time with Zuko, since Ozai disliked him quite much (but it is very possible that Azula felt left out just because of this fact, and I think that the fact that Ursa was banished contributed in making Azula "turn out bad"). Furthermore, I also think that Zuko trained at least almost as much as Azula, because we have seen many times that Zuko can be very determined, so the reason why Azula was better, and got more attention from Ozai. was probably as you said, because she is a prodigy. Finally, Zuko finding out that Ozai didn't really loved him was according to me only the tip of the iceberg in making him "turn out fine", I mean we can't ignore Uncle Iroh, Aang, and his travels in the Earth Kingdom which all clearly contributed to the fact that Zuko "turned out fine". </div> <p>I know this is an off-topic conversation, but I wanted to butt in anyway </p><p>I think the reason Ursa spent so much time with Zuko is because he was such an easy target for Ozai. Azula was favored by Ozai because of her abilities; he didn't actually love her. Ursa's mistake was letting Ozai corrupt Azula (although I'm not sure what she could've done, Ozai pretty much gets his way in everything). I think Azula knew, deep down, that it was her abilities that made Ozai favor her so much, which is why she was such a perfectionist. She was desperate for love and approval, so she used fear to get people to stay with her (like Mai and Ty Lee, which is why she started losing it when they left her - she knew her tactics didn't work anymore, even with the people closest to her; she knew she had nobody... Which also explains why she got so upset when Ozai told her she couldn't go with him in the episode <i>The Phoenix King</i>; she thought her own father no longer wanted/needed her, AND why she was so paranoid with the Dai Li [although she did have a good point about them]... But anyway...). Zuko turned out fine because he followed his mother's and Iroh's example. However, he was somewhat corrupted in his search for the Avatar, because he, like Azula, was desperate for his father's approval and affection. BUT, unlike Azula, he had Iroh there with him. Zuko always had a sense of right and wrong (I'm sure Azula did, too, at one point, but she ignored it in favor of her father's affection), which is why he struggled so much. He pretty much had to decide between his father's approval and doing the right thing.  </p><p>I think this is also why Zuko and Iroh had such a strong bond. Zuko realized Iroh was the father he never had (which I think was his turning point; he knew he didn't need Ozai when Iroh was a much better father to him), and Iroh saw Zuko as another son (especially after Lu Ten's death). </p> </div> <p>It's hardly off-topic if it gets your attention. </p><p>Just to share my piece on Zuko's training, he spent his time in the Earth Kingdom and with Team Avatar, which aided greatly in his training to face Azula. Azula, while probably trained with just words by Lo and Li, was likely had to be self-taught by observing several Firebenders in the past. But her bending was fueled by negative emotions, not the positive ones that made Zuko stronger. </p>

<p>technically Azula broke the Agni Kai by firing at a spectator, Katara. Once she did that anybody could have intervened. Even if she didn't Zuko would have own because he wasn't going crazy, and because he was drawing his power from the true source, life and energy, not power, hate, and fear as Azula was.  </p>