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ALL POSTSWTF backstory?
<p>I'm very curious right now, and I wonder if somebody can straighten out some confusion I'm having regarding the backstory/lore of the Avatar universe.
</p><p>In Korra's book two, there was a set of episodes that covered the origin of the Avatar and its first incarnation, Wan. Those episodes also revealed the origin of element bending as a gift granted by lion turtles to their inhabitants when those inhabitants needed to venture beyond their cities, in order to protect them. The lion turtles did their magical energybending and bestowed element bending on the humans.
</p><p>However, throughout the entirety of Aang's story, there are several instances where it is either implied or explicitly stated that humans <i>learned</i> elemental bending by observing creatures or entities in nature that innately possessed the skill. First, we learned at the end of book 1 that waterbending was learned by humans from studying the moon and ocean. Later, it was revealed that the very first earthbenders developed their skill by studying the blind badger-moles, which is also how Toph became an earthbender, despite neither of her parents evidently posessing the skill. We learned that the first firebenders, the Sun Warriors, learned their skill from dragons, and both Aang and Zuko learned (or re-learned) firebending directly from the last two in existence. Finally, at some point Aang mentions that the very first Air Nomands became airbenders by observing the flying bison.
</p><p>I may be missing something here, but it seems to me that this is a pretty serious backstory/lore conflict. Does anybody know what's really going on here?
</p>
(Edited by administrators)
<p>Thanks for that, Captain. And on the subject of the medieval period (though my guess is I'm just repeating the basics here), there were actually a huge number of advances in chemistry, optics (well, optics really started then), military technology, mathematics, medicine, philosophy, and mechanics, among other things. It's just that most of them were happening in other parts of the world. Even as one area stagnates, another has the potential to grow in the absence of that other, earlier power; something that most folk still seem to be a bit reluctant to accept.
</p><p>I'd say I agree with that point. (Chuckle) I just wish they'd keep to them occasionally...
</p>
(Edited by Avatar Vyakara)
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<div class="quote"><i>Avatar Vyakara wrote:
Thanks for that, Captain. And on the subject of the medieval period (though my guess is I'm just repeating the basics here), there were actually a huge number of advances in chemistry, optics (well, optics really started then), military technology, mathematics, medicine, philosophy, and mechanics, among other things. It's just that most of them were happening in other parts of the world. Even as one area stagnates, another has the potential to grow in the absence of that other, earlier power; something that most folk still seem to be a bit reluctant to accept. <p>I'd say I agree with that point. (Chuckle) I just wish they'd keep to them occasionally... </p> </i></div>
<p>I know, but most of the audiance isn't going to know a lot of that stuff. Ignorance is bliss comes to mind with most audiances, which actually really sucks. </p>
Thanks for that, Captain. And on the subject of the medieval period (though my guess is I'm just repeating the basics here), there were actually a huge number of advances in chemistry, optics (well, optics really started then), military technology, mathematics, medicine, philosophy, and mechanics, among other things. It's just that most of them were happening in other parts of the world. Even as one area stagnates, another has the potential to grow in the absence of that other, earlier power; something that most folk still seem to be a bit reluctant to accept. <p>I'd say I agree with that point. (Chuckle) I just wish they'd keep to them occasionally... </p> </i></div>
<p>I know, but most of the audiance isn't going to know a lot of that stuff. Ignorance is bliss comes to mind with most audiances, which actually really sucks. </p>
(Edited by Kubernes)
<p>Yeah...and to be honest, that hurts, because a good piece of work should challenge you to think <i>more</i> about things, not just fall into a standard category. (Neo, if you're listening, I'm trying not to play hypocrite here.) It should inspire you to learn more about things, to challenge your own views on life, and to learn a thing or two because of it. Last Airbender, Teen Titans, Lord of the Rings, Waiting for Godot, Umberto Eco's fantastic works, Terry Pratchett's even more fantastic works...even Legend of Korra, really; all of these have something to offer, and I know I've not even started the list. Doesn't mean you have to <i>like</i> it, but thinking is always good.
</p>
(Edited by Avatar Vyakara)
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<p>Some of those universes did re-ignite my interest in a number of those areas. I went into more of the ancient English sources just because of Lord of the Rings. So I have to give them some credit for the rediscoveries but I can only speak for myself.
</p><p>Some of that was also because I saw potential problematic elements in the story. I can say for certain after Beginnings, I went to look at the various Yin/Yang philosophies just to see if the writers were following a particular one (one of the few that adds human morality to them).
</p><p>In the end, it might simply be that compromise wins the day?
</p>
(Edited by Kubernes)
<p>I do think the risks Legend of Korra (ie the deaths of the past Avatars) took are part of the reason I liked it.
</p>
(Edited by Neo Bahamut)
<p>Okay, first, to address the original question - and I'm sure it's been addressed extensively anyway - there actually IS no substantial conflict between what was said in ATLA and what we saw in Beginnings.
</p><p>Let's use one example: ATLA claimed that Dragons were the original firebenders, and are revered as such - or were, until the Fire Nation decided it would be cool to kill dragons for the bragging rights and hunt the breed into near extinction.
</p><p>Now, let's look at Beginnings. Wan gets the ability to manipulate Fire from a lion-turtle. Does that conflict with ATLA? Actually not, because Beginnings also shows Wan learning to master this ability from...a dragon.
</p><p>Second, the ABILITY to bend is inherited, as is shown with, for instance, Katara. But having the ability and knowing how to use it are two entirely separate things.
</p><p>Thus, the two are not mutually exclusive. Badgermoles are canonically established to have earthbending ability, which is not contradicted by Beginnings in any way, as badgermoles never appear. Ditto Sky Bisons, and the Ocean/Moon Spirit lore is never mentioned either.
</p><p>Lion-turtles could give the ability. They did <i>squat </i>to teach anyone how to actually use it effectively. Thus, the first generations of benders gained the ability itself from the lion-turtles, but learned how to effectively use that ability. from a variety of other sources.
</p><p>No substantial contradiction there at all that I can see.
</p><p>Also, there is the fact that it has been ten millenia between Beginnings and present day.
</p><p>As for the animals/spirits themselves, I personally believe that they evolved the ability to "bend" on their own, separate from whatever the humans/lion turtles were up to.
</p><p>And since it was brought up earlier in the topic, on the subject of the possible return of the lion turtles: It won't happen. As of AG 100, there was only one lion turtle left living in the entire world. The race is basically extinct.
</p>
(Edited by DrachenRitter42)
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<div class="quote"><i>Neo Bahamut wrote:
I do think the risks Legend of Korra (ie the deaths of the past Avatars) took are part of the reason I liked it.</i></div>
<p>Maybe if the consequences felt a bit deeper with the Korra character than the fact the audiance lost Aang. Imagine if this event happened to Aang; it would have been devastating to both him and the audiance. It would have been far more shocking because of the established connections rather than the strictly magic wand qualities of Aang/Wan in LoK. </p>
I do think the risks Legend of Korra (ie the deaths of the past Avatars) took are part of the reason I liked it.</i></div>
<p>Maybe if the consequences felt a bit deeper with the Korra character than the fact the audiance lost Aang. Imagine if this event happened to Aang; it would have been devastating to both him and the audiance. It would have been far more shocking because of the established connections rather than the strictly magic wand qualities of Aang/Wan in LoK. </p>
(Edited by Kubernes)
<div class="quote"><i>DrachenRitter42 wrote:
Okay, first, to address the original question - and I'm sure it's been addressed extensively anyway - there actually IS no substantial conflict between what was said in ATLA and what we saw in Beginnings. <p>Let's use one example: ATLA claimed that Dragons were the original firebenders, and are revered as such - or were, until the Fire Nation decided it would be cool to kill dragons for the bragging rights and hunt the breed into near extinction. </p><p>Now, let's look at Beginnings. Wan gets the ability to manipulate Fire from a lion-turtle. Does that conflict with ATLA? Actually not, because Beginnings also shows Wan learning to master this ability from...a dragon. </p><p>Second, the ABILITY to bend is inherited, as is shown with, for instance, Katara. But having the ability and knowing how to use it are two entirely separate things. </p><p>Thus, the two are not mutually exclusive. Badgermoles are canonically established to have earthbending ability, which is not contradicted by Beginnings in any way, as badgermoles never appear. Ditto Sky Bisons, and the Ocean/Moon Spirit lore is never mentioned either. </p><p>Lion-turtles could give the ability. They did <i>squat </i>to teach anyone how to actually use it effectively. Thus, the first generations of benders gained the ability itself from the lion-turtles, but learned how to effectively use that ability. from a variety of other sources. </p><p>No substantial contradiction there at all that I can see. </p><p>Also, there is the fact that it has been ten millenia between Beginnings and present day. </p><p>As for the animals/spirits themselves, I personally believe that they evolved the ability to "bend" on their own, separate from whatever the humans/lion turtles were up to. </p><p>And since it was brought up earlier in the topic, on the subject of the possible return of the lion turtles: It won't happen. As of AG 100, there was only one lion turtle left living in the entire world. The race is basically extinct. </p> </i></div>
<p>I like this explanation. It definitely makes sense, but I have one question. Would the "original benders" (badgermoles, dragons, etc.) have gained the ability from a lion turtle or just they've always had it? I know this question may not be exactly answerable (unless I'm missing something), but what would your theory be? </p>
Okay, first, to address the original question - and I'm sure it's been addressed extensively anyway - there actually IS no substantial conflict between what was said in ATLA and what we saw in Beginnings. <p>Let's use one example: ATLA claimed that Dragons were the original firebenders, and are revered as such - or were, until the Fire Nation decided it would be cool to kill dragons for the bragging rights and hunt the breed into near extinction. </p><p>Now, let's look at Beginnings. Wan gets the ability to manipulate Fire from a lion-turtle. Does that conflict with ATLA? Actually not, because Beginnings also shows Wan learning to master this ability from...a dragon. </p><p>Second, the ABILITY to bend is inherited, as is shown with, for instance, Katara. But having the ability and knowing how to use it are two entirely separate things. </p><p>Thus, the two are not mutually exclusive. Badgermoles are canonically established to have earthbending ability, which is not contradicted by Beginnings in any way, as badgermoles never appear. Ditto Sky Bisons, and the Ocean/Moon Spirit lore is never mentioned either. </p><p>Lion-turtles could give the ability. They did <i>squat </i>to teach anyone how to actually use it effectively. Thus, the first generations of benders gained the ability itself from the lion-turtles, but learned how to effectively use that ability. from a variety of other sources. </p><p>No substantial contradiction there at all that I can see. </p><p>Also, there is the fact that it has been ten millenia between Beginnings and present day. </p><p>As for the animals/spirits themselves, I personally believe that they evolved the ability to "bend" on their own, separate from whatever the humans/lion turtles were up to. </p><p>And since it was brought up earlier in the topic, on the subject of the possible return of the lion turtles: It won't happen. As of AG 100, there was only one lion turtle left living in the entire world. The race is basically extinct. </p> </i></div>
<p>I like this explanation. It definitely makes sense, but I have one question. Would the "original benders" (badgermoles, dragons, etc.) have gained the ability from a lion turtle or just they've always had it? I know this question may not be exactly answerable (unless I'm missing something), but what would your theory be? </p>
(Edited by Lil Tinymouse)
<p>Like I said, I think that this was an ability that was inherent to the various species which evolved naturally on its own - meaning that, for instance, dragons have always had the ability to breathe fire/firebend, badgermoles have always had the ability to manipulate earth/earthbend, etc...entirely independently of the lion turtles, which near as I can tell used a limited form of energybending to grant humans a primitive form of elemental manipulation, one element each.
</p><p>A form of convergent evolution, if you will.
</p>
(Edited by DrachenRitter42)
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<div class="quote"><i>DrachenRitter42 wrote:
Like I said, I think that this was an ability that was inherent to the various species which evolved naturally on its own - meaning that, for instance, dragons have always had the ability to breathe fire/firebend, badgermoles have always had the ability to manipulate earth/earthbend, etc...entirely independently of the lion turtles, which near as I can tell used a limited form of energybending to grant humans a primitive form of elemental manipulation, one element each. <p>A form of convergent evolution, if you will. </p> </i></div>
<p>With the Princess Mononoke references, I just took portions of the story to just illustrate the man versus nature struggle. Mainly the early Wan parts and a few of the later ones like the one with Wan's friend. </p>
Like I said, I think that this was an ability that was inherent to the various species which evolved naturally on its own - meaning that, for instance, dragons have always had the ability to breathe fire/firebend, badgermoles have always had the ability to manipulate earth/earthbend, etc...entirely independently of the lion turtles, which near as I can tell used a limited form of energybending to grant humans a primitive form of elemental manipulation, one element each. <p>A form of convergent evolution, if you will. </p> </i></div>
<p>With the Princess Mononoke references, I just took portions of the story to just illustrate the man versus nature struggle. Mainly the early Wan parts and a few of the later ones like the one with Wan's friend. </p>
(Edited by Kubernes)