Talk:Iroh/@comment-3278061-20110928165231/@comment-1025281-20111104065358

As a trained debater, I generally prefer to debate the themes of your argument rather than deal with each little point tit for tat, but as you seem to be telling me that I'm "missing" your point, I suppose I'll make things just that bit clearer for everyone. Enjoy the wall of text.


 * 1) In my reply to you, I made it clear that I was approaching your argument from two directions. One was the sheer amount of Firebending force Ozai could muster compared to Iroh (not cool attacks or fancy tricks), and the other was practical combat ability. I believe I have already done enough to prove my case on either front, but since you're determined to redirect the debate onto just "fighting", I'll follow. You seem to have a strange concept of scale and distance. At no point (before the Avatar State comes into play) during Ozai and Aang's fight do they stand at the kind of distance Iroh stood from the Inner Wall of Ba Sing Se. Sure, more of the screen is taken up by animated flame, but that in itself doesn't make the attack "bigger"; it merely means that we're more close-up.
 * 2) Of course Ozai's most powerful Firebending feat in the series is not directly comparable to Iroh's most powerful. Because of the different circumstances each bender in the series faces, none of their feats are comparable. The practicality of a storyline doesn't allow it, and the reasonable person would be satisfied with the statements of other characters, such as Zuko, in regards to fighting prowess. However, since you seem to be determined to match up on-screen feats and pronounce simplistic judgements on how this person's attack is stronger than this person's attack, I am offering you the fairest comparisons that are there. Take them or leave them. As for Iroh not being shown again during the Liberation of Ba Sing Se – that's purely a storytelling decision. You gotta give Piandao some screen time.
 * 3) Eliminating two incidents where Iroh was not in a fair confrontation, he got his way every time. You describe situations where two other characters utilised the most efficient way to get the fight over with. Good. Well, due to the way Avatar was told, Iroh was not thrust into those same situations – he certainly wasn't idiot enough to take on the Avatar – but that still does not detract from his second-to-none ability to conserve energy while getting his way. Compare that to some other bender's frankly pointless demonstrations – Ozai did plenty during his fight with Aang like this one. Pretty, but did it get Aang to recoil in fear? Not really.
 * 4) Imperial Firebenders are Imperial Firebenders, and en masse they're much more dangerous than a couple hanging around in hallways at a time. Iroh had to take a platoon of them on in a pretty open situation, while Sokka and Toph had the luxury of a more difficult fighting environment where sheer Firebending power is more effectively negated. Case put to rest.
 * Oh, the Ozai-Zuko Agni Kai. Well, this one is simple too. Two easy problems with Iroh magically interfering and demanding a stop to the nonsense. One is that if you're standing some distance away from two people right next to each other, you can't somehow teleport yourself or make some kind of "wall" to stop one from harming the other. Common sense. The other is that Ozai is the Fire Lord. Intervening is the foolish course, because it would do nothing except land Iroh in prison while Zuko would still suffer a burn. Pointless. Why not preserve yourself so that you can stick around and help the poor teenager later? That's exactly what he did, and we all know what happened from that...
 * 1) Your point? I was merely pointing out to you that Iroh was not mentally weak, because you spent a great deal of prose describing him as exactly that. Of course I know that many other benders have reserves of their own mental toughness as well.

You seem dissatisfied with Zuko's pronouncement that Iroh was the only person other than the Avatar who could take on Ozai. Very well – despite the evidence that Zuko was mature enough to ascend to the position of Fire Lord at the end of the series, you don't want to take his opinion. Yet he was not the only one to hold Iroh in higher regard than Ozai. The father of the two brothers, Azulon, was held his older son in much higher regard, and all evidence is that he showed an attitude of contempt for Ozai. Why the rage at Ozai's proposal? Why not just make the imperial equivalent of, "Get lost and go to your room"? Certainly, Azulon was cruel, but if he had any respect for Ozai, demanding that Zuko – his own grandson – be killed as punishment seems a bit far-fetched. Azulon also seemed to like sending Iroh on military campaigns and had every confidence in his ability – on the other hand, the supreme commander described as nothing but superbly capable was content to allow his younger son to wallow at home. How interesting.

So – "point blank", as you say – Iroh is thoroughly deserving of the reputation other characters and Avatar fans have given him in general. Say what you will about Iroh not having a greater physical part in the finale, but I'm sure most of us agree that this is a character that is central to the magic of the series.