Talk:Airbending/@comment-76.24.189.176-20120121100340/@comment-76.24.189.176-20120215024108

I'm going to put this as nicely as possible: You have crossed the line from logical debater to anti poison flame troll. You dissed Avatar Wiki, and have clearly become too biased to the point where much of your facts and logic are tainted. If you know so much about it, maybe you should re-write every article pertaining to fire so your light theory can be true. I respected you unique opinions and views, and I respected how you use logic and facts to debate disagreements rather than ignore reality like most people. I also respected your knowledge of fire (I took your word for it and to some extent I still do believe and respect it). But as it pertains to this argument, you have crossed the line and constantly contradict both of us at the same time. It is beyond annoying and is now to the point of obnoxious, and is now practically impossible to take what you say seriously. Either you don't really know as much about fire as you would like us to believe, or your views are clearly too clouded with bizarre prejudiced against poison firebending for the logic and facts to be accurate. I'd love to know why you are so against it in this first place. And don't say it's because it is impossible again as you would be wrong again. Would it have to do with that light THEORY (and it is only so) of yours? All I'm saying is that it is still possible as far as we know, and I'm not even saying that your light theory isn't possible in the Avatar world. Why do you feel so strongly against this? It doesn't make any sense, and neither do your arguments now.

What gets me the most is how you slam a site that you clearly invest a lot of your time in even just on commenting alone. Then after you slam the proof I gathered from the site (in which I figured you of all people would respect but I guess not), you have the nerve to tell me to go through all the articles relating to fire. You do this as if you would actually believe anything else I might find from this site that proves me right, even after you completely rejected everything I brought you from it. Clearly the reality must be that you wouldn't believe anything from this site. You even said that material from this site probably shouldn't be used as it isn't representative of clear facts, before of course you had to contradict that later in the same post by telling me to read all the articles related to firebending. Why don't you read all the articles related to firebending, instead of getting me to bring samples so you can dismiss them as not facts? Better yet, why don't you go rewrite them all yourself because you know so much about it? I mean if this doesn't prove that you aren't in the state of mind with this topic to discuss it realistically, then what would? Are too much of an "expert" to see facts that don't agree with your biased views?

But just in case I am wrong about you on this, I'd like you to give you the benefit of the doubt and have you take a look at one last example called Fire Augmentation. I brought this up last time but I'm guessing you didn't notice. And I quote, 'firebenders can also control the size and intensity of any nearby flames and can draw them in to manipulate them at will." It proves that firebenders can control existing flames that were created naturally like fire in our world, with the typical chemical reaction involving oxygen, heat, and fuel source. We saw evidence of this in the show so it must be true in the Avatar world, and the rest of that description gives multiple examples. Common sense tells us that their unnaturally made fire shouldn't be (bending wise) compatible with normal existing fire if the firebender's fire doesn't require oxygen and/or fuel. It also shouldn't be able to catch anything on fire. This is because it would simply go out as soon as they stopped bending it, therefore also stopping the process that allows that fire to exist without fuel and/or oxygen. But they CAN control both types of fire. So either they both involve fuel, oxygen, and heat, or they can switch from one make up/requirement/etc. to the other and as a result are able to control BOTH (plus we have seen them control both in the show). And if they can switch to the other at all, then firebenders CAN control flames with oxygen involved. And since the quote clearly says that they can control the intensity of natural flames (which would be burning oxygen), by manipulating the intensity of those flames, they can in effect manipulate how much oxygen the flame draws in. If they can do that, then it is at least possible to get oxygen levels to match the carbon ones for a carbon monoxide reaction of some sort using some sort of complex technique.

In short, Fire Augmentation proves firebenders CAN bend fire that has oxygen in it, thereby being able to indirectly control how much oxygen a flame draws through manipulating that fire's intensity, and in turn making it possible for them manipulate oxygen levels within the fire to create a 1:1 ratio of carbon and oxygen gas within the area of the flame. If you still don't understand this simple concept then try rereading my post from the top again.

Also, the number 3. in my last post is true was well. Fire can be controlled in the same space as gases. While in the same space, it counts as being combined in the chemical reaction and would effect the fire. And in turn, the fire can continue to be manipulated in the same space as those gases, thus retaining the properties of both combined in the same space. Want another contradiction you made? And I'll quote it below:

"Rockets are propelled by the hot gases created in the chemical reaction, not by the fire. The rocket pushes on the gas, and the gas pushes back, which is what propells the rocket."

If even you admitted this was true, then in effect you have proved my point that fire can be controlled in the same place as various gases, because the gases clearly comes out of the rockets in the same space as the fire. That means that the properties of fire are not completely as you described. It also means a firebender could manipulate the natural currents existing in fire to control the gasses to occupy the same spot as the fire, and also to move with it. Thus, a firebender WOULD be able to use the combustive force of the flame to keep the gases inside it, and as a result keeping a flame's unique properties. And if fire didn't have combustive properties, explain how a firebender could push another person back with the force of their own created flames? I know you must have saw that in the show a number of times. I know I did. It proves that firebenders naturally create fire that has combustive force, or at least that carries gases or something else with combustive force where the firebender manipulates the flame. That same combustive force also appears in currents in the flame itself, created by the chemical reaction that creates and sustains fire. Again, it could be manipulated to keep gases trapped inside it in this way. If you do not understand this simple concept then clearly you do not understand fire as well as you think you do.

We also know that carbon gas can get into the area of the flame. Even if you dismiss the information of Iro's breath of fire technique, common sense tells us they can mix air from the lung with the flame, or at the very least in the same the area the flame is burning. The flame comes out from the mouth, where we can also exhale. Exhaling breaths out air from our lungs (or CO2 or carbon gas that contains carbon and oxygen) into the same area as the fire would be coming out of the mouth. We also don't know if there are other breath attacks a firebender might be able to pull off, considering waterbenders could exhale a breeze of freezing mist. Also humans are carbon based life forms. Do you know what that means? It has to do with biology, and as a result it is (among other things) basically why we exhale carbon dioxide at all (although obviously it's more complex than that). So you don't have to be an airbender to breath oxygen and carbon gasses. Simply fill a breath technique with a bigger exhale to increase the volume of the carbon dioxide. Maybe you should think things through before you slam the articles on this site, hmm?

And this is the last contradiction I'm putting here. The first quote from you:

"Also, have you heard of suspended reality? Within a show like this, real life can only be taken so far. True, in real life flames cannot exist without a reaction, and they usually a regular combustion reaction. But in the Avatar world, the fact that people control fire in the first place changes the rules of the game a little."

And later in the same post:

"I'm growing tired of this, because it's getting nowhere. You keep citing things that aren't possible as proof of something that is also impossible."

Make up your mind! Or would that be too inconvenient? First of all, I already proved that firebenders can manipulate flames that go through a regular combustion reaction. (Again, see fire augmentation.) But even when leaving that little detail out, your entire argument against me now rests on your theory that flames created by firebenders don't require fuel and oxygen. That is impossible in the real world. I have yet to get a real world example of a fire that doesn't burn oxygen without an oxidizer such as fluorine, whether that be in the fuel or added separately. You only say in the real world it is possible. Yet my real world examples with legit proof don't apply because you say the flames created by firebenders in the Avatar world aren't like real world ones? If reality doesn't apply even this much, then your unreality can't prove poison firebending doesn't exist in the Avatar Universe. All you can do is provide a counter theory and claim that it is fact (and it's not only the creators know for sure) and therefore claim my theory doesn't apply because you think it would be impossible. Yet when I give my theories on firebending, you still reply to me that fire doesn't work that way in the real world. Perhaps it is so confusing to self proclaimed "fire experts" like yourself to mix real world physics with a spiritual ability, that you grasp the concept poorly as it doesn't relate well to what you've been taught, and that's where the obnoxious contradictions come from. The reality is only the creators know what truly applies from the real world and what doesn't. The rest is simply speculation. You can speculate as if it is fact all you like, but it doesn't prove my poison firebending idea is impossible like you claim. All I am trying to prove is that it still is possible with what we know. For some reason you seem to have a real issue with that.

IN CONCLUSION :

We know all three steps needed can happen. We know carbon and oxygen in gas form can make it to the same area as the flame. We also know a firebender can indirectly effect the oxygen levels by controlling the intensity of a flame. And finally, we know a firebender can use the flame's force to physically trap gasses in the same area as the fire, thus keeping the fire's properties while bending it. All of these three steps are as far as we know possible in the Avatar world, and despite there not being a known technique about it, there is still not enough evidence for anyone to prove that it can be completely ruled. If you think there is enough evidence to prove me wrong then you are only fooling yourself.