Talk:Hundred Year War

Noncanon Pilot Map
I vote to remove that pilot map. First, you can obviously seen a few changes were made when they made the current map, such as the Water Tribes and the outer islands of the Fire Nation. Not to mention that if you keep watching the pilot the red almost goes over all the continents, which is not the case in the show.

--8th Mizukage 04:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Some anon added it, I think it serves a good purpose, but if we have to remove it, I suggest putting another similar image, such as a map from either the FN war room, or the Council of Five's room. Omnibender 22:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I greatly agree, in fact I came to this discussion page to post about this Felinoel 04:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't really care if a picture replaces it, I just don't think that particular one is a good image to chose.

--8th Mizukage 06:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It might as well just be taken down right? It doesn't need to be replaced by anything? Felinoel 15:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Or if it needs a picture, how about this? Felinoel

I don't even see why it was up in the first place. Allison0z 16:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent point, I removed it, if anyone feels the need for any other picture there, please keep it canon Felinoel 20:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Name
Yea, idk about the name of this article, it might be good for now but what about in 2009 when that new miniseries is supposed to come out? What if there are other wars shown in the shows? I'm thinking you should name it after who started it and call it, Sozin's War. felinoel ~ (Talk) 00:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good name. Omnibender 23:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone else feel like commenting? felinoel ~ (Talk) 01:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not The Hundred Year's War? It's witty, truthful, and historical. Lord Momo 02:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds good too felinoel ~ (Talk) 02:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I like "Hundred Years War" too.Puragus 05:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would remove the confusion "Sozin's War" would most definitely cause because people see Ozai fighting it, not Sozin, and they don't realize Sozin started the war so its really his felinoel ~ (Talk) 14:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was only Sozin's war for like the first 20 years (I think).Puragus 17:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well you mean Sozin only fought in it for the first about 20 years felinoel ~ (Talk) 01:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think so. The timeline for what happened when during the war is a little hazy.Puragus 16:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

If what I remember from Mike and Bryan's interview at AvatarSpirit correctly, Sozin ruled the Fire Nation during the first 20 years of the war, which means he lived 32 years after Roku's death, during which he fathered Azulon, who in turn ruled the Fire Nation for 75 years (total of 95), and the last 5 years were Ozai. Omnibender 21:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, what I am saying is Sozin started it, it will always have been Sozin's war, not just for the years he fought in it felinoel ~ (Talk) 02:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's true. Sozin started the war, but he obviously wasn't leading the Fire Nation the entire time it was going on, so it probably went in directions that he never foresaw or intended. I mean, Sozin didn't come up with that "Phoenix King" thing, did he? And he didn't think of wiping out the Earth Kingdom. Sure, the war was Sozin's idea, but if we're talking about overall contributions to it; I think calling it "Sozin's War" lays the whole thing on Sozin, and diminishes the impact and scale of the whole thing. Puragus - Talk 02:24, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with you Puragus, "Sozin's War" is the best name I can think of other than Century War or 100 Years War. The reason I think Sozin's War is the best name is because he was the instigator of the war, even if he didn't rule the FN during the whole war, in way, it's like Sozin's Comet, he used it to start the war, and the Comet was named after him, so while Ozai used it to try ending the war, it is still known as Sozin's Comet. If someone can think up another suiting name, all ideas are welcome. Omnibender - Talk 17:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Why are we talking about the overall contributions to it Pur? felinoel ~ (Talk) 06:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying, it doesn't seem to fit as well as "Hundred Years War", or something like that because of overall contributions.Puragus - Talk 20:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, what you said was that Sozin didn't contribute enough in the war to have it be named after him, when he started the war which amounts to a pretty big contribution, also he took an action that caused the Avatar to get frozen for a hundred years, that too seems like a big contribution... But anyways I never said I didn't like Hundred Year War felinoel ~ (Talk) 07:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Er...maybe I misspoke. I didn't mean to sound like Sozin didn't do a lot by starting the war. He just wasn't there the entire time, so he's not ultimately responsible for the directions it would take: Azulon and Ozai are. But anyway, what should the new name be? My vote is for Hundred Years War. Puragus - Talk 18:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So if you had a kid and taught it nothing but how to steal and kill all its life, and once you leave it and it kills and steals like crazy you aren't ultimately responsible? I think years should be singular, I have heard many wars be called about how many years they had but they all had years be singular for some reason felinoel ~ (Talk) 06:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What, you're using an environment defense for Azulon and Ozai now? They each had a choice in their actions, even if they were raised in a certain way. Look at Zuko and Iroh, they were raised the same way, but they chose to be good instead (Zuko much sooner than Iroh, I'll admit). Also, Wikipedia names the actual Hundred Years' War as plural. Puragus - Talk 15:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I am not talking about anyone in the Avatar show, I was making an analogy with what you said, reread it. felinoel ~ (Talk) 17:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but what I was saying is relevant to your analogy; that kid would still have a choice in his or her actions. Just because someone is raised a certain way, doesn't mean that they'll turn out that way, because they have a choice. For example, I know people who were raised in ultra-conservative religious type households, but grew up to be atheists or evolutionists or moderate liberals. To continue your analogy, if that kid were to shoot someone and kill them, the parent bears some part of the responsibility, but it doesn't change the fact that the kid pulled the trigger.

Similarly, Ozai may have been raised to conquer the world by Azulon, who in turn was raised to do the same thing by Sozin, but each of them still had a choice to stop (I think even Aang made that point in "Into the Inferno", when he tries to persuade Ozai to stop, right before the fight starts. He says something like "you still have a choice" or "the power to stop this" or something along those lines.) I guess my opinion is that pinning the war on Sozin minimizes the atrocities committed by Azulon and Ozai, and that's wrong. Although, the last time I posted on this debate was a month ago, so that may not have been my exact position then, but my vote is still for Hundred Years War. Puragus - Talk 17:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Again I say I was not saying anything about the Avatar World, I was just talking about a kid, any kid, one that was raised by its parents to do nothing but steal and kill for the first ten years of its life and then they abandon it, as I said above by applying your statement you are saying the parents have basically no fault behind this kid, like how little credit you are giving Sozin felinoel ~ (Talk) 17:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

READ MY ARGUMENT. I specifically said that the parent bears some responsibility, but that the decision ultimately rests with the kid. I also said that my Sozin/Azulon/Ozai statement is relevant to your analogy, and that's why I mention it.

Also, I don't think I'm giving Sozin too little credit, but let me be clear: Sozin did many horrible things. He betrayed his best friend. He started the war. He committed genocide when he exterminated the Air Nomads. He nearly exterminated the Dragons. He brought havoc on the world, and I'll give him credit for all of that.

However, Azulon and Ozai did many horrible things too, things that they chose to do for themselves, even if they were raised in a certain way. I'm not giving too little credit to Sozin. You're the one who's not giving enough credit to Azulon and Ozai, at least from my point of view. Puragus - Talk 18:10, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Azulon and Ozai did those things in Sozin's name, in preparation for a comet even named after him, a comet that started the war. felinoel ~ (Talk) 18:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

They did it for themselves, for their own selfish desires for power and glory, or at least Ozai did. Remember Ozai's speech in "The Phoenix King". He barely mentioned Sozin once. Most of the speech was about him and how he would be the supreme ruler of everything. He may have looked at Sozin as a role model and he probably admired him (And Azulon, too), but his desire for power was his own thing. You notice how he created the "Phoenix King", a position ranked higher than "Fire Lord", for himself? That says to me he wants to be better than Sozin. Look at Ozai's expression as he's burning the Earth Kingdom: he's definitely not thinking "This is all all for you, Grandpa!" Look at what he says to Aang: "I have all the power in the world!" It's not Sozin he's doing this for, it's himself.

I don't know that the same thing is true for Azulon, maybe he was just carrying on his father's legacy. We don't know enough about him to make any definitive statements either way. But we do know one thing: he was cruel enough to order his son to kill his grandson. Sozin was long dead by that time, so wasn't Sozin that did that, it was him. No matter how he was raised, he still had a choice not to be so cruel.

There are a lot of things we can blame Sozin on, but he doesn't deserve the blame for every single bad thing that happened during the war. Puragus - Talk 19:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I never said he was doing it for anyone but himself, but he was doing it in the name of the person who made all that possible to happen.
 * I never said blame everything on Sozin, I merely said name the war after him, after the person who started it all
 * I still can't believe you think most of what the kid does is his fault, this kid is psychologicall scarred, thats like blaming a mentally challenged person for jaywalking across a road with no cars in sight whatsoever felinoel ~ (Talk) 19:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the person you're talking about isn't mentally challenged or retarded, he just had a hard time growing up. It's a different circumstance. (Wait...how old is this kid exactly? I know you were talking about someone who was abused as a child, but how old is he when he commits these crimes? I know this seems like a revision of my argument, but I swear this is true: I imagined someone who'd been abused as a child, but he is committing these crimes when he's an adult, about 18 or so. Maybe I misread your argument, sorry).

Secondly, we both seem to be coming up with new arguments to say exactly the same thing: You say name it "Sozin's War" after the person who started it (If I missed any part of your argument, please correct me). I say name it "Hundred years war" so it will encompass the actions of Sozin, Azulon and Ozai, and it will encompass the whole scope of the war. Neither of us seems to be able to convince the other. How are we going to resolve this? Puragus - Talk 22:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I said nothing about abuse.
 * "Hundred Years War" says nothing about Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai, it just says that it lasted for a hundred years felinoel ~ (Talk) 12:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

"Sozin's war" could be anything. It could be a war that lasted six months, with very low casualties. "Hundred Years War", by planting the idea of a war that lasted a hundred years in the reader's mind, carries lots of connotations of a long, complicated struggle that caused great pain and suffering for many people, like the actual Hundred Years War. Puragus - Talk 15:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I never said "Sozin's War" said anything to do with the length of time it lasted, you on the other hand said "Hundred Years War" shows the actions of Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai, when all it shows is how long it took, "Sozin's War" is recognizable due to Sozin's comet, a comet which even comes every hundred years. felinoel ~ (Talk) 22:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

My main argument was always that "Sozin's war" diminishes the full impact of the war. Hundred Years war brings it home, and yes, while the name itself doesn't include Ozai and Azulon, it makes the full length of the war clear, and implies the actions and atrocities of all the wars leaders. One argument I haven't made, but that definitely can be made is for including the actions of all the leaders/generals and soldiers of all nations included in the war. It's like how we call it "World War 2", instead of "Hitler's war". Puragus - Talk 23:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We could always wait for the next war in one of the upcoming series/miniseries to finish deciding the name for this war... Until another THE war exists, "The War" seems fine enough, at least, as I said, until the next series felinoel ~ (Talk) 23:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure by the time they make something new, they'll have some sort of official name for this war.Puragus - Talk 23:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If not them then Nick.com will felinoel ~ (Talk) 00:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

What about Fire Nation War? It's simple, the tree Fire Lords that ruled during it would be already included in Fire Nation, and from an Avatar World perspective, it would be easy to associate the name to the conflict, from what Sozin said in The Avatar and the Fire Lord, by the time he was Fire Lord, the Fire Nation had reached a time of unprecedented peace and wealth. Omnibender - Talk 21:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good felinoel ~ (Talk) 22:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, that sounds a little like it was a civil war within the Fire Nation...how about War of Fire Nation Dominance? I know it's a bit wordy, but we can work on it. Puragus - Talk 23:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, lets just go back to waiting till 2009 when the new miniseries airs felinoel ~ (Talk) 10:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Fire Nation Imperialist War? It removes the civil war feel of it. Omnibender - Talk 22:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

It sounds okay, but I think Sozin's War would be the best. I mean, think about it: this would totaly be the name if they named it; infact, I think Roku even called it that in "The Avatar and the Fire Lord". Even if not, we have to think not what we would call it, but what the world of Avatar would call it. --SuperFlash101 02:33, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, it's been forever. What are we going to rename it? HELLO?!? --SuperFlash101 19:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep "The War" until an official source renames it something else. 888th Avatar - Talk - Contributions 01:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

And what if they dont? Personally, I'm all for Sozin's War or The War of the Hundred Years. - Zero - Talk 13:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe The War of Sozin's Comet. I mean technically it was Sozin's Comet that was pivotal in the war, was it not? I'm for any of the above three. - Zero - Talk 13:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What about The Great War or The World War? I still would keep the old name though, that's how they always refer to it during the series. The 888th Avatar - Talk 13:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Nah. There were other great wars before this one, like Chin's War. And the World War is too real worldish. Maybe we should agree not to change the name untill more information is released. If it ever does. - Zero - Talk 14:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * We shouldn't change the name until we known more. Canonical terms should be used unless it is unavoidable. The 888th Avatar - Talk 14:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are only two ways that I'm sure we'll learn the name:


 * 1) In the possible new series.
 * 2) An official interview with Mike and Brian.


 * Therefore, we should just name it better than this. I mean, we've had about three wars worth making pages about, and therefore we need a real name. Sozin's War is the closest to what Roku said in The Avatar and the Fire Lord, so that's my opinion. I mean, we call Foaming Mouth Guy that and he has no confirmed name. --Excelsior, The Flash - (Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay!) 14:53, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, for God's sake, let's just vote on it already. Someone please create a voting section with all the names we've listed: Sozin's War, Hundred Years War, Fire Nation Imperialist War, War of Fire Nation Dominance, The Great War, The World War. If I forgot any, you can add them. Puragus  Talk 17:48, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

If we named Chin's War after him, only fair to name this one as Sozin's. It also ties in nicely with Sozin's Comet. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I think just 'The War' is fine. After all it is called the war in the series. 60.234.151.56 07:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Roku called it something along the lines of "Sozin's War." Plus, we know of at least 4 wars in the show, so this is just a terrible name. ~Excelsior, The Flash - (Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay!) 00:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, I vote for Sozin's War, as I made those points earlier, and besides, "The Hundred Years War" and the "World War" are real-life wars. ~Excelsior, The Flash - (Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay!) 00:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm voting for War of Fire Nation Dominance, because it's the most accurate description of what the war actually was. Like I said, the war carried on much longer than Sozin's life, and most of the major engagements were from after his time. This is not like "Chin's War, which started and ended with Chin. Puragus   Talk 16:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, it's been about a week and no one's voted more. Since Sozin's War has won, I'll change it to that. But only if no one objects by tommorrow afternoon. — Excelsior,   The Flash  - ( Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay! ) 04:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a feeling some users don't even know about this vote. I for one forgot all about it. No, we'll go as per the voting policy and make votes run for the full two weeks. I'll post this one on Avatar Wiki:Voting to make sure people do remember this one. The 888th Avatar  (Talk) 04:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright then. — Excelsior,   The Flash  - ( Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay! ) 05:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Voting
Rename to Sozin's War
 * 1) —Excelsior, The Flash - (Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me bay-bay!) 20:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) We put Chin in the title of his war, why not Sozin? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename to Hundred Years War

Rename to War of Fire Nation Dominance
 * 1) Puragus   Talk 16:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

World War

Keep Current Name
 * 1) The 888th Avatar (Talk) 22:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Dcasawang1 - Talk - Contributions 15:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Template
The fire nation started the war, so why do we have an orange template? Similar comment at Talk:Siege of the North. Alex101313 - Talk 19:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

And on. Forum:Quote. - Zero - Talk 13:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Fire Nation loss
Should the template really say the Fire Nation lost? True, Ozai lost to Aang and Ba Sing Se was liberated by the White Lotus, by Zuko himself effectively ended the war while there were other Fire Nation dominated areas in the Earth Kingdom, doesn't that constitute a truce or an armistice? Omnibender - Talk 22:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

A similar thing happened in World War One, but we still say Germany lost that one. I think if the Fire Nation was stopped from burning the Earth Kingdom, it's a loss for them. Puragus - Talk 23:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Germany saw it couldn't win, so it called for an armistice, in this case, the Fire Nation got a new leader during the final battles of the war, and a time after that, said leader said the war was over, there's a loss in a battle, but in the war as a whole, it ended with the Fire Nation stopping the war. Omnibender - Talk 23:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

A little messy
This article needs a little bit of cleaning up. And about the "outcome" part of the info box - why is there so much strategically unimportant information in there? The 888th Avatar 04:26, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * We have info about the current situation in the "Early Stages Section", for example.
 * We have info about who in the Fire Nation wanted the war in the intro, which I think should be in another section - Prelude perhaps?

I removed the current information from the "Early Stages" Section and put it into the "Recent Years" where needed.The 888th Avatar 11:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Image
The section in which it shows Ozai in prison, that's a good aftermath image. However, we could also use a shot of Zuko's coronation, as it was truly symbolic of the war's final end. Please respond.Fire Eater 07:52, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll have to disagree with that. Another image in that section will clutter the page. The Ozai image by itself will be fine. The 888th Avatar  (Talk) 07:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)